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Originally Posted by BVRAAM
(Post 10428635)
What will be the exact role of the newly formed 12(B) Sqn and soon to be formed IX Squadron at Coningsby and Lossie, respectively?
I read on Faceache just now that apparently they are both going to be Red Air Squadrons, with 12 having the additional commitment of providing support to the Qataris while they get established with the Typhoon. When SDSR15 was published, and it was announced that Tranche 1 Typhoons would be retained for air defence, I was under the impression this would be for QRA purposes, since they don't possess any A-G kit that I know of. I don't remember reading they would be used as Red Air assets for the Typhoon frontline. Will they be deployable or are they home commitment only? I'm not "in the know" at all, but I'd imagine the current levels of overall manning, Typhoon Force manning and the training pipeline issues will all be impacting how quickly these additional sqns stand up (or if at all in the case of the 3rd Sqn), though on a positive note IX is clearly forming at Lossie as jets have been noted in the Sqn markings. |
So, what is happening now that ASDOT has been cancelled? Surely there’s a requirement to provide the capabilities that Cobham jets produce? |
Extend the existing Cobham contract?
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Are they able to extend the contract? I’d have thought that the MOD would have wanted some fast air platforms to reduce the reliance/burden on Hawk and Typhoon doing it. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10426568)
OAP |
BV. If I may say, some good posts earlier about specialist pay. :ok: Unfortunately, Military employment terms are soulless, and that extends to your employment at minimum cost, as much as your total expendability as circumstances dictate! :sad: I never found a branch that completely avoided the expendability bit but, the minimum cost thing is only really overcome by those joining within powerful cabales, such as Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists and Religious leaders! Cheers
OAP |
I’m pretty sure that the Lawyers are paid the standard officer rates without any RRP. Just sayin’ :cool: |
Warren Peace When you eat the seedcorn, you are going to be hungry soon. As ever the focus is always around the pilots when their brothers/sisters of the Aircrew gang are also starting to suffer the very same problems. |
Given the parlous state of the training system, wasting assets on red air profiles doesn’t make much sense, especially when those assets can be used for actual training. I think the USAF, USMC and USN have all gone down the route of contract red air especially in the form of fast jets. |
FL
I’m not sure what you mean. Red Air profiles are training. With regard to contracting out, it’s the same guys you need to fly your red air whoever they work for. BV |
Flying Red Air is not training. It’s flying, yes, it’s not training. Moreover, if you use mostly contract Red Air then you aren’t using RAF pilots, who in turn can be flying blue air sorties or training students on the OCU (Typhoon). |
FL
Please reread what I wrote. If you take the time I’m sure you’ll see what I mean. Can you name any civilian red air provider who has not drawn from the ranks of the Air Force it supports? If you can name me a company that trains red air pilots from scratch then I will gladly withdraw my criticism. BV |
You are correct, there are no contract red air fast jet companies that train pilots from day 1. However, the number of pilots required for contract red air is probably not as many as you or I may think. Equally, there are quite a number of pilots that have recently left or about to leave that are more than capable of filling these seats that the Service is losing anyway. This, coupled with the amount of money and assets thrown at providing Red Air I am sure it makes more economical sense to have contract Red Air. |
FL
I’m not saying I disagree with the concept of a civilian red air provider. On the face of it, it seems to work In Canada with Top Aces. I just don’t think you should pretend that it will solve any manning issues. BV |
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10450838)
You are correct, there are no contract red air fast jet companies that train pilots from day 1. However, the number of pilots required for contract red air is probably not as many as you or I may think. Equally, there are quite a number of pilots that have recently left or about to leave that are more than capable of filling these seats that the Service is losing anyway. This, coupled with the amount of money and assets thrown at providing Red Air I am sure it makes more economical sense to have contract Red Air. |
BV, I didn’t pretend in anyway that it was a solution to the manning issues. If you reread my comment slower then you’d understand. What I said was why waste a pilot and MDS providing RAF Fast Jet (FJ) Red Air when that pilot and MDS can be used on Blue Air or, in the case of an OCU, used to generate more training sorties. I found it quite a surprise that the Treasury/DE&S decided to pull the contract when the RAF is trying to grow its combat mass which attracts a concomitant increase in FJ Red Air requirement. This doesn’t even consider the RN whom also require this sort of service. |
FL
I am very tired and have been traveling a long time. I feel like we are arguing the same point and I am confused. Lets just agree to disagree. Or agree to agree. I really don’t know any more! BV |
I disagree with the concept that a uniformed pilot RN or RAF in the Red Air role is ‘wasted’ and they could be flying Blue. I know that you’ll always get the puddles of folk who don’t seem to move on - but circulation is on the whole healthy and probably aids retention; so long as it’s well managed, doesn’t foul your career and quarters are good... If your Red Air people are uniformed you have the opportunity to keep them vibrant and fresh in roles other than the frontline (or whatever we’re calling constant QRA and Simulator time these days!!) If your Red Air work for a contractor - expect to lose folk to the contractor. |
The 527th at Alconbury did a pretty good job of 'Red Air' aggressor work back in the early '80s. Their F5s were hard to spot and very nimble - who remembers hearing "Tracking...tracking...Atoll...Atoll!". Tried to pull one up in the vertical once - and ended up with more AoA units than IAS. Oops!!
During my F-4 course, we had some DACT towards the end. The opposition were a pair of Hunters with 100 gallon tanks flown by 79 Sqn instructors versus our fatigue conserving g-limited Charlie fit jets. Oh how they chuckled! |
Originally Posted by orca
(Post 10451751)
I disagree with the concept that a uniformed pilot RN or RAF in the Red Air role is ‘wasted’ and they could be flying Blue. I know that you’ll always get the puddles of folk who don’t seem to move on - but circulation is on the whole healthy and probably aids retention; so long as it’s well managed, doesn’t foul your career and quarters are good... If your Red Air people are uniformed you have the opportunity to keep them vibrant and fresh in roles other than the frontline (or whatever we’re calling constant QRA and Simulator time these days!!) If your Red Air work for a contractor - expect to lose folk to the contractor. |
Trust you? No idea why I should do that. Remember, if you’re not up against a representative war plane then no one’s training. You can get plenty of training out of a Red Air sortie. If your people are leaving then you’re losing experience and capability. The fact that they’re leaving to fly for contractors when they might not have left if given a second line tour at the correct point is an issue. |
You’ve no reason to trust me. No you can’t get training out of flying Red Air other than airborne time itself which would be better served flying as Blue. You simply can’t get the required ‘ticks’ when flying Red Air. That’s not open for debate. People are leaving, that’s the point, and of those people leaving they have been asking for follow on tours on the FL and are not getting them for various reasons; entirely valid reasons for the majority. |
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10452168)
You’ve no reason to trust me. No you can’t get training out of flying Red Air other than airborne time itself which would be better served flying as Blue. You simply can’t get the required ‘ticks’ when flying Red Air. That’s not open for debate. People are leaving, that’s the point, and of those people leaving they have been asking for follow on tours on the FL and are not getting them for various reasons; entirely valid reasons for the majority.
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10452094)
Trust me, it’s wasted having people sat doing FJ Red Air; you simply cannot get the training required. If your metric is hours flown then sure. If your metric is capability, then it’s a waste. As I’ve already said, there is a constant stream of talented FJ pilots leaving anyway so they would be ideal candidates for contract Red Air. The point that you don’t get “ticks” merely serves to highlight some of the problems within a system that is that it driven by quantitative stats rather than qualitative assessment. Flying Red also gives the opportunity for people to try things they wouldn’t normally do as blue which if flown correctly can increase their individual ability. regardless if I have a choice up between a squadron that I have a role in having to fly a modest percentage of red air or getting an extra Cobham or some contractor job radar non EW ex trainer I know what I want. Guess what - It’s not the 0.8M hawk with no SA or 0.6M 20kft falcon. lastly what percentage of people leaving want to step to Cobham over Middle East training / an airline job / somewhere like inzpire / city consultancy? I wouldn’t be relying on that to solve the brain drain. |
Originally Posted by flighthappens
(Post 10452223)
Red air is only a waste of a time if people are not thinking correctly. At present the threat has very similar capabilities to the 4th Gen Blue - mimicking red is certainly not “invalid”. There are plenty of core skills that can be practiced. The point that you don’t get “ticks” merely serves to highlight some of the problems within a system that is that it driven by quantitative stats rather than qualitative assessment. Flying Red also gives the opportunity for people to try things they wouldn’t normally do as blue which if flown correctly can increase their individual ability. regardless if I have a choice up between a squadron that I have a role in having to fly a modest percentage of red air or getting an extra Cobham or some contractor job radar non EW ex trainer I know what I want. Guess what - It’s not the 0.8M hawk with no SA or 0.6M 20kft falcon. lastly what percentage of people leaving want to step to Cobham over Middle East training / an airline job / somewhere like inzpire / city consultancy? I wouldn’t be relying on that to solve the brain drain. I absolutely agree about your assessment of a quantitative vs qualitative system. Unfortunately, in my view, the hierarchy are seduced by number of hours flown vice quality of hours flown. The ASDOT contract would have unlocked the door to more representative Red Air threats and not the Falcon or Hawk that you speak of. Finally, neither you nor I are able to tell with certainty what percentage of pilots would switch to a contract Red Air company to fly fast jets rather than the options you listed. Anecdotally though, it’s a high percentage. |
SAAB might have some spare fighters looking for a use...
Fourteen white tail Saab GripensA small scandal is emerging within the Swedish Defence Industry. It was reported this week in the Svenska Dagbladet that the Försvarets MaterielVerk (FMV, Swedish Defence Material Adminsitration) had ordered fourteen more Gripen hulls with Saab AB just in order to keep the production line open. According to the given information ten of these hulls are JAS39C models and four JAS39D models.The Swedish Government agreed to this policy and were hopeful that the aircraft could have been exported to overseas customers, but an order never came in. Several, mainly eastern European countries, were approached in the past, like Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia, hoping those would buy the Saab JAS39C/D Gripen. But to no avail.The white tails, although "only" empty hulls, have cost the Swedish taxpayer a lot of money. FMV does not want to say the amount of money involved, but claims that these hulls have been budgeted for in the Gripen E contract. https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazine/posts/2748254551867728 |
Originally Posted by Davef68
(Post 10452243)
SAAB might have some spare fighters looking for a use...
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