Signed...........

Lady Hermon used to be my MP; she is an honourable person.

Why would MOD want to waste manpower sorting-out 'important' from 'un-important' records? Nothing short of complete retention of all existing records is good enough.

Signed.

Accepting that the attitudes have changed in the UK MoD since the time of the accident, I find it very sad that in the current climate of a 'just culture' the potential for destroying these files, which represent a sad chapter of injustice, should exist.

L

LOMCEVAK:-

While I would agree that the Gross Negligence that enabled a knowingly Grossly Unairworthy Fleet to receive an RTS and be put into Squadron Service, even while still being evaluated by Boscombe Down (who stopped testing and grounded their own test aircraft, urging the RAF to do the same), would make repetition unlikely, the cover up by the MOD and the RAF High Command continues unhindered. It is that very cover up that threatens destruction of the remaining 'unimportant' records of this tragedy.


We may append as many comforting words and titles as we please; just culture, Military Aviation Authority, independent, etc, but they are seen for what they are when an operator, investigator, regulator, are one and the same (aka the MOD) and can destroy such records at its whim.


This accident, more than any other, spells out 25 years on the dysfunctional mess that is UK Military Air Safety. These records must be rescued intact from the MOD's grip as per the OP. Military Air Regulation and Investigation must be made truly independent of the MOD and of each other.


Self Regulation Doesn't Work, and in Aviation It Kills!

MOD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records
 

Petition signed (as #1862)

More from Hansards yesteday:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans...ce#gHL13730.r0

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/images/mps/10211.jpgLord Foulkes of Cumnock Labour

To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answer by Earl Howeon 7 February (HL13095), whether a Fatal Accident Inquiry was carried out into any of those deaths; and if so, which.

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• Hansard source(Citation: HL Deb, 25 February 2019, cW)

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/images/unknownperson.pngEarl HoweThe Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, Deputy Leader of the House of Lords

There was a Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) carried out following the crash of a Chinook in June 1994 on the Mull of Kintyre which concluded it was impossible to establish the exact cause of the crash.

Since the formation of the Ministry of Defence (MOD) Inquest Unit (DIU) in 2008 there have been no FAIs. Before the formation of the DIU, Inquests were dealt with by the individual Services (Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force), the DIU does not have access to any records that may have been retained from this period. It is, however, unlikely that these records have been retained under the MOD records retention policy which is normally five years from date of opening.

We have held discussions with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscals Service (COPFS), to determine if there any other FAIs have been held. COPFS have advised it is not possible to confirm how many FAIs have taken place into military deaths in Scotland since 1990. The COPFS database is based on individual specific information i.e. name, date of birth, date of death and not on occupation. It is not searchable on occupation and we are advised that any search would also return deaths of individuals from natural causes, which could amount to many hundreds of records and would need to be manually searched. This information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

signed #1864

Shared the petition on Twitter too

Signed number 1894.

Fond memories of my old O.C. Bob 'Fire Eater' Burke sticking it up 'em- they didn't like it much!

As many people have said or suggested on this site before, ``the only reason why the crash & other records would be destroyed, is because there is something in there, the powers that be, do not want us to know about`` Think Security.

Chinook ZD576 - 25 years
 

Major Richard Allen
Colonel Christopher Biles
Detective Inspector Dennis Bunting
Detective Chief Superintendent Desmond Conroy
Flight Lieutenant Richard Cook
Martin Dalton
Detective Superintendent Phillip Davidson
Detective Inspector Stephen Davidson
John Deverell
Major Christopher Dockerty
Assistant Chief Constable Brian Fitzsimons
Master Airloadmaster Graham Forbes
Detective Superintendent Robert Foster
Lieutenant Colonel Richard Gregory- Smith
Detective Superintendent William Gwilliam
Sergeant Kevin Hardie
John Haynes
Major Antony Hornby
Anne James
Detective Inspector Kevin Magee
Michael Maltby
Detective Chief Superintendent Maurice Neilly
Detective Superintendent Ian Phoenix
Major Roy Pugh
Stephen Rickard
Major Gary Paul Sparks
Flight Lieutenant Jonathan Tapper
Lieutenant Colonel John Tobias
Lieutenant Colonel George Williams

‘My mother has been lied to by the MoD. It treated my family with utter contempt following the crash and despicably tried to enact the Warsaw Air Carriage Act to limit payouts to the widows and families. Hardly the actions of a moral outfit.
Even after we overturned this obscene effort they forced my mother to produce receipts for the clothes my father wore on the day of his death, and list how many potatoes he would eat in an average year as part of their quest to limit compensation. The callousness was breathtaking and displayed a complete lack of integrity.
Quite frankly we were treated like Irish peasants by uncaring, absentee feudal landlords and the disdain was palpable’.

Niven Phoenix, son of Detective Superintendent Ian Phoenix, RUC (late Parachute Regiment) - February 2019

From BBC News and others.

Two special commemoration services will be held on the Mull of Kintyre later (today) to mark the 25th anniversary of the RAF Chinook helicopter disaster.

Relatives of the 29 people who died are expected to join the congregation at Southend Parish Church of Scotland.

The helicopter was on its way from RAF Aldergrove near Belfast, to Inverness on 2 June, 1994 when it crashed into a remote hillside.

Rev Stephen Fulcher is leading both services, the first at 11:45.

He said: "This is the 25th anniversary of a tragedy that had a huge impact on this very small rural community and remains to this day a living memory for many people. "A lot of local residents have kept up contact with relatives of the people who were aboard the helicopter and continue to hold them in their thoughts and prayers to this day. "This is an anniversary of national significance and I expect quite a lot of local people will attend the service because many of them vividly remember that fateful day like it was yesterday."

Former local lighthouse keeper Hector Lamont, who was first on the scene of the crash which occurred during thick fog, is expected to be among people paying their respects.

Representatives from the emergency services, Lord Lieutenant for Argyll and Bute, Patrick Stewart, Deputy Provost of Argyll and Bute, Roderick McCuish, and local MP, Brendan O'Hara, will also be in attendance.

Following a community lunch in the village hall, a second service will be held at the memorial cairn near the crash site at 15:00.

Rev Roddy McNidder, who was the minister at Southend at the time of the disaster and helped to support the victim's families, will deliver a sermon. The minister said the 25 passengers - including leading security personnel from the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), MI5 and the Army - and four crew will never be forgotten.

He will say: "This lovingly built cairn claims the ground in remembrance of the sadness of June 2, 1994, to honour your loved ones and also yourselves, your families and friends. "Each name inscribed on this cairn, which shines out every time the sun reflects upon it, calls us to remember the unique person whose name is written there.

"And to acknowledge our memories, experiences, and encounters with them, along with the hopes of what might have been over these 25 years and years still to come. "For memories engraved within our hearts will never be forgotten. The love shown to us will never be lost."

Last week the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland called on the Ministry of Defence to keep all records relating to the crash in a "safe place and not deleted". There are fears that the true cause of the accident, the worst RAF disaster in peacetime, will never be known if they are destroyed.

Former Moderator Very Rev Dr Alan McDonald told commissioners that the Ministry of Defence had confirmed that records closed in 1995 and 1996 "will be reviewed for release or alternative disposal this year".

The pilots, Flt Lts Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook, were initially accused of gross negligence.
But a fresh review in 2011 found the pilots should not have been blamed.

And from elsewhere ….

“ …. but David Hill, a retired MOD helicopter engineer and Dr Susan Phoenix, whose husband RUC Det Supt Ian Phoenix was killed, recently said the review had no remit to inquire into the actual cause of the crash.”

“ …. the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland made a fresh call for the Ministry of Defence not to destroy records ….. Members backed a motion calling for all documents relating to the crash to be “kept in a safe place and not deleted” in support of the families affected.”

..........

At a time when pressure is still being applied for the Lord Advocate to hold a Fatal Accident Inquiry into the Moray Firth Tornado accident of 3rd July 2012, it is difficult to believe that one was only held for the Chinook accident because civilians were on board, and they died "in the course of their employment". Service members and police officers did not count under the Scottish legal system.

DV

25 years on and still no official explanation of why this aircraft crashed and these 29 dedicated professionals perished. That is a national disgrace and a stain on the honour of the Royal Air Force. Now we face the possibility that the records which could reveal why they died might be yet destroyed. That church leaders have to call for that not to happen is a comment on those institutions that have reneged on their duty to investigate and to act on clear evidence that the aircraft was grossly unairworthy and should never have received an RTS.

Shame on Parliament, the MOD, the Civil and Service Police, the RAF, and the RAeS. The families cry out for justice. Let Right be Done!

I'm still of the opinion that a contributing factor was the withdrawl of radar from Macrihanish a month or so before the tragic accident.
Had a radar service been available from Macrihanish, they might not have had to fly VMC below and could have climbed above icing and safety altitude in IMC. Was this ever discussed at the BOI?
But then, I'm only a retired controller who worked on Odiham Radar for many years including those when Chinooks were in service from their introduction so who am I to comment?

chevvron

There was no icing clearance in the Mk2 Release to Service on 2 June 1994. It had been removed in March 1994. The pilots used what had been in the previous issue, -4C. It was reinserted after the accident. This was an administrative error.

The calculated icing altitude was below safety altitude. The aircraft captain asked if he could breach this limit, and was told NO. The Board did not say who the officer he asked took the matter to (if at all) or what the reaction was.

Is it just me, but Inverness seems a strange destination for a Security Conference and the Chinook a strange choice of aircraft to transport virtually the whole of the Northern Ireland intelligence community.

Maybe it was the only aircraft that just happened to be available in Aldergrove at the time.

RIP, I will raise a glass to them this evening! :sad:

Out of Trim

I cannot speak for Fort George, except it was polar the last time I stayed there in 1977. But it's secure, in the sense there is a resident battalion, which would be a factor. It was the go to Army place in the area after the move from Cameron Barracks in Inverness. The orginal tasking was for two Pumas, from the squadron the Chinooks were attached to. This was changed at the last minute, it is claimed on the direction of one of the Army passengers. The other Chinook, a Mk1, was unserviceable. The aircraft captain had asked for it to be used instead.

Lima Juliet:-
Given that among the many airworthiness problems that afflicted this fleet; "positively dangerous" FADECS that lacked any manual reversion, and flight control malfunctions, 'controlled flight into terrain' might be seen as an 'if only' possibility. Of course an independent (like truly independent!) accident investigation could not produce a 100% certain outcome. Many aviation accident investigations fail that test, but given that its gross unairworthiness was scarcely considered by the BoI, and its findings anyway were overturned by the VSO Reviewing Officers who demonstrated their finding of Gross Negligence of the JO pilots to a Commons Committee with very contentious postulations, it is time that the facts surrounding the Release to Service of the Chinook Mk2 are considered fully with respect to this dreadful tragedy in a fresh accident investigation.

This wasn't a one off, though it is to date the worst airworthiness related military fatal air accident suffered by this country. On that basis alone it deserves further independent investigation in order to avoid future UK Airworthiness Related Military Fatal Air Accidents, the only acceptable reason for any air accident investigation.

John,

It was an honour and also a great pleasure to have known and worked with you in SOAF. A true professional and a great guy!

Bill

Agreed. Thanks Jayteeto

1. It was RAF VSOs that dragged the reputation of the crew into disrepute, never mind the public forum.

2. It was the "armchair investigators" that produced evidence of the illegal RTS to Lord Philip that at last obliged HMG to set aside the Reviewing Officers' Finding of pilot Gross Negligence.

3. That the MOD and RAF VSOs still quibble with SoS Fox's statement is a comment on them, not on the reputations of the pilots which have been fully restored in any fair minded analysis.

4. Read the OP. 25 of those deceased were pax. Their families deserve better than the muttered blame game still being put about by the apologists.

5. No, I wasn't there and I wouldn't want anyone to be there again either. That is why I support the campaign to reform UK Military Air Regulation and Accident Investigation.

6. Read the OP. There is a quote from the son of one of the deceased that condemns the treatment that his mother received from the MOD. Do you want the mods to shut that off as well?

7. If this tragedy hadn't been mishandled from the word go, others might have lived instead of dying in subsequent airworthiness related fatal air accidents.

8. I know how painful it is to lose friends and colleagues in air accidents. You want the rest of the world to butt out and leave you in peace. That is how I remember feeling too. I was wrong. That tragedy had to be properly investigated and lessons learned. It was and they were. Mull deserves no less.

Jayteeto, you are conflating rigorous investigations that uncovered irrefutable facts accepted by Lord Philip; with pet theories which have never been proven. Unfortunately, the BBC's main article this week takes you directly to a website pushing the latter. They continue to pander to the guilty. Their go-to retired senior officer is the one who said the pilots were 'miles off course'. Not a single person in MoD demurred, presumably because of his rank. That's why independent investigators are needed, and if they choose an armchair over a swivel seat when sifting the evidence, then so be it. (A rocking chair works).

The question needs to be - why did MoD's investigators not uncover the facts? That retirees got there, rather quickly and with ease, seems to have upset many. So much so, MoD now withholds SI reports until after the Inquests, to prevent proper investigation. One needs to appreciate that the evidence that persuaded Lord Philip was precisely the same as that to the Nimrod and XV179 coroners, and Haddon-Cave. Investigation, singular.

There are 29 families, not just two, and they are now in the situation where the RAF's findings have been set aside, but not replaced with anything. If they ask MoD for the official report, it still says the same. They have the oblique legalese of Lord Philip's report, which a 5 year old can drive a bus through. They have Hansard, where MPs and Lords use parliamentary privilege to repeat the lies of the Air Staff. Only the Fatal Accident Inquiry comforts them.

JT2, I agree with your sentiments.

The facts are that we don't know the facts and never will. I think on this thread at least, it should be let lie.

RIP those who died.

Have my own theories but this not the place.

It is in the nature of the internet that anyone can post here whatever they wish. It is in the nature of PPRuNe that those who disabuse that privilege can be moderated or even banned. That is for the mods rather than we members. The reason that this 25th anniversary of the tragedy is so significant is that the MOD is poised to destroy records relating to this tragedy (in addition to those that will already have been destroyed). It is for the OP to state if this thread is solely an in memoriam one or one that again raises the profile of this long running scandal of VSO Cover-Up.

The final 'fighting back' thread was arbitrarily locked off following the SoS setting aside the Reviewing Officers' finding. Fair enough, but such acts nominally taken on behalf of the families often fly in the face of their wishes. Time and again they are the ones who support reform so that other families might be spared the grief that they have suffered.

This thread is still open!!

Chuga,

Please see this thread is still running: https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...records-5.html.

I have watched the discussions of this tragedy over the years and have developed a very jaundiced view of how the RAF, MoD, Civil Authorities, Courts, and Parliament (shall we say "officialdom") have acquitted themselves in that time.

It was because of the outcry by many that the two Pilot's had their name cleared.

The most probable cause of the crash has not been properly evaluated and put to paper YET.

We see a thread called "Who speaks for the dead?" and no one challenges it being here or when the Nimrod Crash gets brought up....again no one complains.

The RAF Senior Staff and others within Government have not conducted themselves in the manner one would think they should....and that should not be tolerated.

I submit that as opposed to "dragging the crew's names into this yet again"....keeping the records intact and the incomplete investigation in the public eye is actually honoring the Crew and the Passengers killed in the crash.

Personally, I think we owe the dead that respect as they paid a terrible price along with their loved ones who were left behind.

Some very serious fingers need pointing at those who have frustrated laying out all of issues that were factors in the crash and they should not be allowed to walk away unscathed over this.

I honestly believe that if it had been me that came to rest on those rocks.....be I at fault or not.....that the truth was determined as best possible so that others might not wind up as I did.

All those people died in the service of the Realm.....and they deserve a legitimate investigation into how and why that happened with blame assessed where blame is deserved.

Sadly, had those in senior positions not devoted their efforts to deflecting blame and instead sought the honest by God truth....we would all be better served including those lost that day.

SASless, thank you for your thoughtful and supportive post. It really helps.

jayteeto, thank you too for conceding to SASless at least. We are all really as one, I hope, in not wanting any more of these avoidable tragedies, no matter the cause.

ShyTorque, thank you for drawing attention again to the Parliamentary Petition thread which is still current and from which anyone can add to the petition calling for all records relating to the Mull of Kintyre crash to be retained at Kew. Or follow this link if you wish:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/237925

Please sign. The OP was the "really irritating" OP of the three Hitting Back threads, and hopefully will not cease to be just as irritating in the future!

Well said.

Chugalug, I was one of the very first to sign, having had a message from the "Irritating Sod" himself. ;)

.......
Jay,

“I walked out to the aircraft with Jon ….” would be, for me, a very scary recollection.

Have you read the ‘good book’ on ZD576 ? - If not, “Their Greatest Disgrace” by David Hill is readily available from the usual watery place and the €-version is a mere £3.99. ... No aliens or wild theories, and given the opportunity, no challenge by the MoD about the facts therein.

Alternately, could I take the liberty of mailing you a spare copy as a gift, if you wished ? ... I will pm you.

LFH

..........