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Bell-Boeing start CMV-22B production
Bell Boeing to start production of the COD variant CMV-2BB for the Navy. It is replacing the legacy Grumman C-2A Greyhound...
Bell Boeing to begin U.S. Navy CMV-22B production work under $4 billion contract - Bell (news) https://farm1.staticflickr.com/926/2...055aa46c_b.jpg cheers |
Can they squeeze in a few for the RN?
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From here : CMV-22B Osprey | NAVAIR - U.S. Navy Naval Air Systems Command - Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Research, Development, Acquisition, Test and Evaluation
"As compared to the MV-22B, the Navy variant has extended operational range, a beyond line-of-sight HF radio, improved fuel dump capability, a public address system for passengers, and an improved lighting system for cargo loading. The CMV-22B will be capable of transporting up to 6,000 pounds of cargo/personnel to a 1,150 NM range. The CMV-22B is expected to field with Initial Operational Capability (IOC) and deploy for the first time (projected) in 2021. Weight: Max. gross, vertical take-off: 52,600 lbs. Short take-off 57,000 lbs (testing in progress to increase) Airspeed: Cruise: 269 knots Ceiling: 25,000 feet (7,620 meters). Range: 1,165 nautical miles Crew: 4 – pilot, copilot, crew chief, second aircrewman; 23 passengers Not to minimize the work, but it does sound quite similar to the MV. Should cut down on surprises. I don't think the main cabin has pax air- at least in the MV, so ceiling may be seldom reached. |
Could they replace the Hawkeye too with some radar version?
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Roll-out of CMV-22 accelerated and retirement if C-2A brought forward from 2027 to 2024. https://news.usni.org/2018/10/01/nav...yment-set-2021 |
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10187367)
Could they replace the Hawkeye too with some radar version?
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Originally Posted by Stitchbitch
(Post 10266360)
How about selling them Merlin crows nest? 😜 using taillift door as the antenna fixing point. |
So what is the RN going to use as a COD?
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CMV-22B
I attended International Military Helicopter conference last week and picked up from Bell a copy of the CMV-22B brochure. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f56eccf3e.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....28799296a.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e9df3c821.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....056af119c.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d3caedf96.jpeg |
The RN doesn’t have a COD. The usual nonsense trotted out is that embarked CH47 or Merlin will do the MITL role. Not really a player with a decent payload out to representative Blue Water Ops ranges. Unless, of course, you intend to operate QEC as a large LPH in the Littoral.....Crows Nest is a very cobbled together capability, restricted in usefulness by radar horizon and RIP speeds. V22 would be significantly better in both roles but, it seems, the money has gone and it’s not made in Yeovil.... |
First flight
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Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
(Post 10393017)
The RN doesn’t have a COD. The usual nonsense trotted out is that embarked CH47 or Merlin will do the MITL role. Not really a player with a decent payload out to representative Blue Water Ops ranges. Unless, of course, you intend to operate QEC as a large LPH in the Littoral.....Crows Nest is a very cobbled together capability, restricted in usefulness by radar horizon and RIP speeds. V22 would be significantly better in both roles but, it seems, the money has gone and it’s not made in Yeovil.... F-35B engine? Chinook gearbox? two dozen 500lb Paveways? with a top range of 1000 miles or so, a CMV-22B isn't exactly blue water navy capability either - indeed i'd be interested to see the working that shows a UK operation in the last 40 years (or any other time period you can think of) where a Carrier group on operations could be supplied from land by a CMV-22B but not by Chinook... |
i'm somewhat struggling to imagine what a COD aircraft can bring to a carrier that a Chinook and a 40,000 ton RFA thats 2 miles away can't? F-35B engine? Chinook gearbox? two dozen 500lb Paveways? with a top range of 1000 miles or so, a CMV-22B isn't exactly blue water navy capability either |
Rather smart looking in the white and gray scheme. Guess I'll be seeing more of these- I live near Norfolk, Virginia and am quite accustomed to C-2, E-2, F/A-18's, H-60's and the very distinctive sounding MH-53 which you feel more than hear....
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Good explanation of the needs for the Greyhound and CMV-22B here:
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...rey-180973131/ BTW, a bit confused by this little tidbit in Sandiego's post: improved fuel dump capability |
I am presuming, as with the Harrier, it can do a rolling take-off at far above its vertical landing weight.
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Cokecan et al.
What can't it bring? Anything or anybody you didn't think about pre-deployment. If we had an infallible crystal ball or unlimited LIMs of course you could have the RFAs stocked against any possibility. The real world isn't like that…. |
And with the shared supply network, the other users would be pissed off to find the spares were all stockpiled halfway across the Indian Ocean.
I am reminded of the past where RAF Rapier units couldn’t find any spares in the system - to find one army unit had taken about a dozen, which weren’t shown in the database, and had them stored away in a cupboard just in case they might need them in the future.... |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10668926)
Good explanation of the needs for the Greyhound and CMV-22B here:
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...rey-180973131/ BTW, a bit confused by this little tidbit in Sandiego's post: Why would a vertical takeoff aircraft require that? Surely if it's capable of a vertical takeoff, it can land at the same weight, or am I missing something? |
Was not the Greyhound designed around special weapon sizes?
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IIRC it was the size of various jet engines that was the design driver
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
(Post 10670101)
IIRC it was the size of various jet engines that was the design driver
On the plus side, the CMV-22 will fly farther with more weight—1,150 nautical miles with a 6,000-pound payload on a tropical day, versus 850 nm for the C-2. It will use a palletized cargo system that sailors can load beforehand, meaning it will spend even less time on deck than the bulk-loaded Greyhound. Vertical takeoff and landing makes for slow approaches to the carrier and ends the need for hair-raising, airframe-stressing arrested landings and catapulted takeoffs. The first CMV‑22 pilots are training to land at night, a task all but mythical for the C-2. But the Osprey also has a few strikes against it. It has less interior space, and so cannot carry as many people or as much cargo; nor will it fit an assembled F-35 engine inside its protective canister, one of the COD’s primary requirements. |
/not as a mod
Some of you may not be aware that the American Navy is not dependent upon air for resupply at sea. The RAF is occasionally myopic in its world view. This myopia appears to have infected some of our frequent contributors. |
As for range... remember that every V-22 variant (including the CMV-22B) is equipped with a retractable refueling probe - thus its actual range is "tanker availability/crew endurance/engine run-time".
Note also that the C-2 Greyhound was NOT equipped for mid-air refueling (although this could have been easily done). The CMV-22 actually has a higher max internal cargo weight than the C-2A* (even though a smaller internal volume) - and the height/width of the cargo compartment is similar** but not identical. The higher ceiling in the CMV-22B means that some cargoes fit in there that wouldn't in the C-2. Neither can carry an assembled F135 engine in its shipping container (only the proposed CS-3 Viking could have), but both can carry all sections of a F-35 engine - including the lift-fan of the -B - in an open transport frame (which has been developed and tested), just not fully assembled. They have similar cruise speeds (V-22 241kt, C-2A 260kt), and the CMV-22 can operate off a larger set of ships - all helo-capable amphibs, as well as flight-deck-equipped destroyers, etc - meaning many cargoes would not have to be landed on a CVN then transferred to an H-60 to be taken to their destination ship. Yes, the CMV-22 has only a 26,000ft service ceiling compared to the 33,500 of the C-2A. * C-2A "max useful load" (including fuel) 20,608lb; max cargo weight from land 15,000lb; max cargo weight catapult launch 10,000lb V-22 max cargo weight 20,000lb internal, 10,000lb slung load single hook, 15,000lb slung load dual-hook A comment on max cargo weight - this is where mid-air refueling helps. Many aircraft (fighters, transports, etc) cannot take off with both a max fuel load and max payload... either they take off with full fuel and reduced payload or full payload and reduced fuel. If you do the latter in the CMV-22B, then you just top off from a tanker once airborne. ** C-2A cargo hold Length: 27 ft 6 in (8.38 m); Width: 7 ft 4 in (2.24 m); Height: 5 ft 5 in (1.65m) V-22 cargo hold Length: 24 feet, 4 inches (7.41m); Width: 5 feet, 11 inches (1.80m); Height: 6 feet (1.83m) |
First CMV-22B delivered - 7 February 2020 https://defence-blog.com/news/u-s-na...2b-osprey.html
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I wonder if the CMV will also spend much time doing the VERTREP mission (sling load) to and from the replenishment ships. Can be much quicker than internal carry for certain loads.
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First CMV-22B assigned to VRM-30 arriving at NAS North Island, CA.
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(C)MV-22 and F-35 Engines
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10670736)
Which is one disadvantage of the Osprey - from the Air & Space article I linked previously:
Quote: On the plus side, the CMV-22 will fly farther with more weight—1,150 nautical miles with a 6,000-pound payload on a tropical day, versus 850 nm for the C-2. It will use a palletized cargo system that sailors can load beforehand, meaning it will spend even less time on deck than the bulk-loaded Greyhound. Vertical takeoff and landing makes for slow approaches to the carrier and ends the need for hair-raising, airframe-stressing arrested landings and catapulted takeoffs. The first CMV‑22 pilots are training to land at night, a task all but mythical for the C-2. But the Osprey also has a few strikes against it. It has less interior space, and so cannot carry as many people or as much cargo; nor will it fit an assembled F-35 engine inside its protective canister, one of the COD’s primary requirements. The (US) Marine Corps can transport their F135-PW-600s for '35Bs in MV-22s in what I will call a suboptimal manner (the engine is exposed to the elements during (off)loading). NAWCAD Cargo Lab Refines Skid for F-35 Engine Power Module NAVAIR says the USN will be using the CMV-22s to move F135s for its F-35Cs. I assume using the same methods. CMV-22 ferry flight demonstrates successful fusion of developmental, operational test I hope the (UK) Royal Navy will get the same capability at some distant point. Also the RoRo refueling and RoRo ISAR capabilities.:) |
https://www.twz.com/news-features/cm...to-test-report
CMV-22B Osprey “Not Operationally Suitable” According To Test Report Pentagon testers highlight major issues with the Navy’s Osprey as the entire V-22 fleet remains grounded following a deadly crash. |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11591800)
CMV-22B Osprey “Not Operationally Suitable” According To Test Report Pentagon testers highlight major issues with the Navy’s Osprey as the entire V-22 fleet remains grounded following a deadly crash. |
The Cv-22 USAF crash in November led to the grounding. Recent DoD press release is that they have figured out that issue and are working together, tri service, to implement a return to ops.
Marines have been firing them up and running them around on the ground, apparently, to keep the juices flowing. I suspect that for the COD V-22 that issue being resolved removes obstacles. |
Originally Posted by BiISTAR
(Post 11591806)
that’s a fairly big oops moment!
What was the last aircraft they did approve of on the first eval? I don’t remember any. As to low ice protection reliability; that seems to be a common thing on rotorcraft. |
https://www.twz.com/sea/navy-cmv-22b...field-congress
Navy CMV-22B Ospreys Only Allowed To Fly 30 Minutes From A Divert Airfield: Congress The flight limit means the Navy’s CMV-22Bs cannot perform their critical transport mission for carriers on deployment. |
On the information requested by the subcommittee: “The V-22 Joint Program Office (JPO) understands that the House Armed Services Committee has requested the above information. While the V-22 JPO has not been formally tasked by the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) in regards to this particular request; we are appreciative of the support from the committee and Congress over the life of this program and look forward to the opportunity to partner with Congress in assessing the Capability, Availability, Affordability, and Safety of the V-22 Osprey. Once we are formally provided with direction from OSD in regard to this request, we will make every effort to provide all information requested according to applicable laws and regulations. We remain confident in the V-22 Osprey and its transformative capability as the world’s only operational Tiltrotor Aircraft.” I remember working on a staff years ago and having to draft similar rhetoric for the use of the PAO or the flag. I am so glad I don't have to do that anymore. Of interest to me: There have been other concerns raised about the Osprey this year. The Pentagon’s Office of the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, or DOT&E reported that the Navy’s CVM-22Bs were “not operationally suitable due to failures of many subsystems, with the ice protection system accounting for 44% of the total operational mission failures,” DOT&E stated in its Fiscal Year 2023 annual report. (Mind you, when it worked it was wonderful). |
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