Still broken? Is the RAF in better or worse shape than ten years ago
Leafing through an ancient issue of Air Forces Monthly (dated October 2007) I came across a piece entitled 'Is the RAF broken?'
The article went into detail about the definition of stretch and ‘overstretch’, and discussed sustainability (whether the RAF could achieve the tasks set without breaking harmony guidelines), readiness, retention and the mismatch between actual operations and planning assumptions. It talked about the RAF’s diminishing force structure and the fact that the UK was spending 2.2% of GDP on defence - which it said was the lowest proportion since 1930. It criticised what it called 'the ill conceived rush towards PFIs and PPPs, and towards availability based contracting, which it averred would see the loss of key competences and skills among the uniformed engineers. Out of curiosity, I looked at an order of battle for the RAF in 2007, and saw that it included 15 frontline fast jet squadrons (two Typhoon, three Tornado F3, seven Tornado GR4, two Harrier, and one Jaguar), while we still had 18 Nimrod MR2s for MPA and ASW duties, and a 'gold standard' military SAR provision….. Size-wise, it looked like a no-brainer, but we all know that size isn't everything? So is today's 'Agile, Adaptable and Capable' RAF in better shape than ten years ago? Has the flood of leavers at the 38/16 point slowed, or does it no longer matter? Is morale better? Has faith in the senior leadership been restored? |
No, no and no
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Sorry Kpax but I think there were 6 questions at the end so if you don't mind I'll answer the 3 remaining ones: no no and no!
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Isn’t it the 40/20 point now? |
JN - I suspect you knew the answers before you hit send, nevertheless...
If you think it was only 3yrs after that OOB that Bagwell (I think) was openly talking about a future FJ force of 5 or 6 squadrons, then at least things appear to be back on the right trajectory (and not forgetting the MPA decision and new Tanker/Transports since either) From the outside looking in the elephant in the room is obviously manning, in that there appears to be an acute shortage of it. So, on that basis alone, for the guys and gals who are serving then I seriously doubt things feel much better - more likely a whole lot worse. |
The rush to grey began almost 30 years ago. The immediate size reduction target was over 40,000. Many of those made redundant and who might have transferred their skills and training to PFI will now be nearing or passed retirement age. The pool of trained manpower will be pretty dry.
Is contractorisation working? The RAAF had a scheme where some grey suits had a reserve commitment and, as grey, had enhanced pay compared with non-reserve employees. Did this work? |
I don't know.
But I wish those that have chosen a career in the RAF all the very best of fortune. Their RAF is not that in which I served; neither was the one that I joined that of those before me. Good Luck to you all. |
Originally Posted by high spirits
(Post 10134552)
Doing more with even less. More capable fighting platforms and doing just as much. The people are just as fun to work with as ever. It’s not better.....or worse. Just different. I remember car sharing, then lifts home at weekends, then buying a banger and so on. Now . . . |
I don’t know how you can be said to be agile when you’re fixed in place by non-discretionary demands that outstrip resource. It’s either or and that’s a decision nobody wants to make. |
In 1918, the RAF inherited 22,000 aircraft. Has it been all downhill from there? How many aircraft in today’s RAF? Would their Airships be able to launch 100 frontline types today? |
Well, if we mil Brits want to be really depressed, a look at this piece should do the trick. It's by Ted R Bromund, in an American magazine, The Weekly Standard. It's called Damn, Busted.
https://www.weeklystandard.com/ted-r...nd/damn-busted Here are a few snippets: For two decades, British governments have promised to square the funding circle by achieving greater efficiencies, a promise first heard in that 1998 review. For two decades, the efficiencies achieved have failed to keep the declines in defense spending from gnawing into the size and strength of Britain’s forces. What’s even more disturbing are the lies the British tell themselves to make all this seem okay. There is the lie that today’s equipment is so much better than yesterday’s that it doesn’t matter how little of it they have. Leaving aside the obvious fact that even the best plane can’t be in two places at once, the problem with this lie is that buying one plane doesn’t get you one plane on the front line: Given training and maintenance, it gets you about a third of a plane, which is much less useful. Britain’s can-do military culture and its political willingness to deploy mean that Britain is taking on far more risk than it realizes, and on margins that are almost comically slender. In the end, Britain’s problem isn’t money. It’s the absence of leaders who are able to advance a vision for Britain’s world role that would justify spending more money on it. airsound |
Nope, but then maybe it’s about time we wound our necks in and concentrated on looking after the indigenous population of the British Isles first. |
Much of this overstretch is down to that mindless phrase that gets wheeled out when required to justify budget cuts - namely, that the UK "punches above its weight"..:ugh:
When the salami gets too thin to slice anymore, then capability holidays step forward. It's enough to make you weep. Unfortunately, Ted Bromund's comments as quoted by Airsound are right on the money. |
22000 aircraft?!
Let’s get back to those numbers. Would you say, in order to ensure a decent force mix, we should have about 10000 Typhoons and 5000 F35s? Lets pick some some semi random but plausible costs. Say £50M per Typhoon and £80M per F35. So, by my maths, we just need to find £900,000,000,000 (shall we just call it a nice round £Trillion?). All we need to do now is work out the rotary, transport and UAV costs and add in the wages and pensions bill and we can present it to parliament for approval. I’m sure the electorate won’t mind the extra few percent on their income tax. Besides, it’s only the squeezed middle that’ll actually pay and who cares about them anyway? Do I need to add that I’m only kidding or does that go without saying? BV |
The world stage is an expensive place but other countries seem to manage without dozens of fighters and bombers.
But we are a maritime power dependent on SLOC so we need a strong navy. So are many other countries dependent on SLOC but manage with littoral forces, perhaps even just CG cutters. We need a nuclear deterrent to assure our place on the UNSC. Why? We do have a VETO but do we use it? The argument should be Britain's world role, pay up or get out. |
How many GR1s lofting dumb 1000-pounders would have been needed to achieve the recent action in Syria?
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99 C H
How dare you inject reason and logic into the debate?! Thankfully someone with much better knowledge than yourself (along with some examples of how many Hunters we had in 1957) will be along shortly to silence your inane ramblings. BV |
Originally Posted by 99 Change Hands
(Post 10134890)
How many GR1s lofting dumb 1000-pounders would have been needed to achieve the recent action in Syria?
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Hopefully we will have JayTeeto back inside soon to sort them out :)
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Who knows? But I don't think we have the capability of yesteryear. OK, so some of the hardware is more modern. But with complexity comes problems. I gather we have problems with Typhoon; spares being a bit of an issue. But that pales into insignificance when we see what happens with F35. And don't even think about numbers. I watched a program on TV yesterday re HMS Queen Elizabeth. What a farce! Not an aeroplane in sight, expect for one or two imported helos. Excuse me, what is the purpose of an aircraft carrier (there is a clue in the name). If the Isle of White declared independence now, we would lose.
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I cannot understand how we can have one of the largest budgets in the world, but shrinking assets. I still cannot believe we are closing airfields at the rate we are, stick the army on them, you can build a barracks, but a new airfield, forget it, the locals would be up in arms and a barracks is cheaper to build. it also makes no sense to clump all your transport assets at one airfield, not just from a war point of view, but any problems at Brize on the runway and you in effect shut the transport fleet down in one go.
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
(Post 10134577)
In 1918, the RAF inherited 22,000 aircraft. Has it been all downhill from there? How many aircraft in today’s RAF? Would their Airships be able to launch 100 frontline types today? It's not about numbers. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10135142)
I cannot understand how we can have one of the largest budgets in the world, but shrinking assets. I still cannot believe we are closing airfields at the rate we are, stick the army on them, you can build a barracks, but a new airfield, forget it, the locals would be up in arms and a barracks is cheaper to build. it also makes no sense to clump all your transport assets at one airfield, not just from a war point of view, but any problems at Brize on the runway and you in effect shut the transport fleet down in one go.
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Originally Posted by sharpend
(Post 10135135)
Who knows? But I don't think we have the capability of yesteryear. OK, so some of the hardware is more modern. But with complexity comes problems. I gather we have problems with Typhoon; spares being a bit of an issue. But that pales into insignificance when we see what happens with F35. And don't even think about numbers. I watched a program on TV yesterday re HMS Queen Elizabeth. What a farce! Not an aeroplane in sight, expect for one or two imported helos. Excuse me, what is the purpose of an aircraft carrier (there is a clue in the name). If the Isle of White declared independence now, we would lose.
Its akin to expecting a Typhoon fresh out of build at Warton to immediately fill up with munitions and go bomb somewhere without having had a test flight first. |
Originally Posted by Jackonicko
(Post 10134119)
Leafing through an ancient issue of Air Forces Monthly (dated October 2007) I came across a piece entitled 'Is the RAF broken?'
The article went into detail about the definition of stretch and ‘overstretch’, and discussed sustainability (whether the RAF could achieve the tasks set without breaking harmony guidelines), readiness, retention and the mismatch between actual operations and planning assumptions. It talked about the RAF’s diminishing force structure and the fact that the UK was spending 2.2% of GDP on defence - which it said was the lowest proportion since 1930. It criticised what it called 'the ill conceived rush towards PFIs and PPPs, and towards availability based contracting, which it averred would see the loss of key competences and skills among the uniformed engineers. Out of curiosity, I looked at an order of battle for the RAF in 2007, and saw that it included 15 frontline fast jet squadrons (two Typhoon, three Tornado F3, seven Tornado GR4, two Harrier, and one Jaguar), while we still had 18 Nimrod MR2s for MPA and ASW duties, and a 'gold standard' military SAR provision….. Size-wise, it looked like a no-brainer, but we all know that size isn't everything? So is today's 'Agile, Adaptable and Capable' RAF in better shape than ten years ago? Has the flood of leavers at the 38/16 point slowed, or does it no longer matter? Is morale better? Has faith in the senior leadership been restored? |
We would have to find the Isle of White first. Is it in the White Sea?
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Originally Posted by sharpend
(Post 10135135)
Not an aeroplane in sight, expect for one or two imported helos.
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Originally Posted by 99 Change Hands
(Post 10134890)
How many GR1s lofting dumb 1000-pounders would have been needed to achieve the recent action in Syria?
Precision has its place but it should not have become as all-consuming as it has. Watching a successful Brimstone hit slicing through a car, before some of the occupants opened doors and exited with little more than tinnitus, suggests that surgical strikes can sometimes be too clinical. |
Consider counter air mission. The ultimate aim is to destroy the enemy aircraft. The traditional approach was to crater the runway thus pinning the aircraft to the ground. The program then continued with further attacks on the runway with the hope of collateral damage hitting the aircraft. HAS were a counter and area denial a counter-counter.
These programs need lots of aircraft. PGM may reduce the number of aircraft needed to crater the runway and PGM can more easily plink the HAS, but you still need lots of weapons over target. 4 Paveway on a Typhoon don't cut it. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10135422)
Consider counter air mission. The ultimate aim is to destroy the enemy aircraft. The traditional approach was to crater the runway thus pinning the aircraft to the ground. The program then continued with further attacks on the runway with the hope of collateral damage hitting the aircraft. HAS were a counter and area denial a counter-counter.
These programs need lots of aircraft. PGM may reduce the number of aircraft needed to crater the runway and PGM can more easily plink the HAS, but you still need lots of weapons over target. 4 Paveway on a Typhoon don't cut it. Of course, a degree of depth and resilience would go some way to mitigating those risks. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10135422)
Consider counter air mission. The ultimate aim is to destroy the enemy aircraft.
I do subscribe to the ‘precision isn’t a substitute for mass’ argument somewhat, but arguing that 8x airburst 1000lb’ers is going to have a lasting effect on a target is probably a little disingenuous. |
We would have to find the Isle of White first. Is it in the White Sea? That’s not the “white answer”. ;) It’s in the Bay of Plenty! White Island is New Zealand’s most active volcano. https://www.newzealandshores.com/wp-...eruption-2.jpg |
Melchett, that was the regular security issue in Cyprus. In the exercise, one year we would lose the aircraft, the next the crews.
Frodo, what you are saying is a mobility kill will enable freedom of movement by friendlies. This is true. Similarly disabling systens will achieve a firepower kill. Ultimately only a hard kill will give you freedom of movement. Pebble Island was an effective firepower kill whereas the Vulcan attack was a mobility kill. A B2 with JADM or TLAM attacks can achieve the firepower kill without the need to deny movement and then plink each aircraft. To achieve the first strike kill you might need 8 or more Typhoon with 4 missiles each. Against a modern air force you need mass and precision. Oh, and I never suggested 8x1000 was an effective solution. In my day we planned 36 with aircraft unrevetted and that was still not enough. |
Considering the RAF could not even keep a fleet of Gliders and SLMG serviceable to the point that the SLMG's are having to go back to the manufacturer and hardly any of the VGS Squadrons (those that are left) are operating as normal must be an indicator as to level of technical ability actually at the head of the service nowadays. Surprising :- NO Disappointing :- YES. Once you loose the 'Technical' control and the bean counters think that outsourcing is the way ahead then all is lost. Has this saved shed loads of money ! NO; it merely wastes loads of money on trying to keep old equipment going, and also puts the whole organisation under even more stress trying to keep up a capability level. The people at the coal face do a good job 'making it work', but get little back up from those that should be supporting them, and the 'leadership' that has allowed the decline to continue for many years. Many people in the service took their skills on into another related career that also passed on a valuable experience level gained in service of the Country, the true benefit of that has never been considered when looking at defence spending, and is now being felt with a lack of expertise out in the workplace.
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I think rather than comparing RAF capability with yesteryear, surely you need to compare capability relative to a potential enemy against time.
Are we safer now than before? We certainly have been worse - 1940 and the cold war for example. Its very difficult to imagine a scenario where UK air defence could be challenged. And how different is our ability to project airpower from 10 years ago? But having said that I think we get very little for our defence spend. We spend more than France and (I understand) we have less than half the fast jets in service. Also they have a (functioning) carrier with aircraft that they don't share with the airforce - how does that work? Train crashes in slow motion are a bit more painful to watch. I think our carriers and F-35B purchase is an albatross around our financial neck - not just the (lack of) capability they will offer but the drain on resources from the services will hurt. |
POB - The glider situation is a poor bellwether when you are struggling to produce crews, technicians, aircraft and weapons for recent conflicts. Running out of Brimstone missiles during 2 simultaneous conflicts whilst keeping the glider fleet in top shape could be seen as odd. Non-combat units have always suffered when resources are stretched and air cadets are as far away from combat as it gets. That said, the glider issues were a shambles and I breath a sigh of relief in that the air cadets still exist and still receive MoD money. |
The french look good by prioritising shop window projects and not the enablers, hence a major reliance on UK and US strat airlift. They also pay appallingly and offer little support to troops who get bad equipment.
I shared a room on HERRICK with a French Officer who told me a few horror stories of how bad the French military is beyond their shop window. |
Just This Once My point being how would you expect the 'High Tec' part of the service to be fit for purpose when the same responsible people (Up Top) can not even organise something simple. It is not even about money in that case, its about not having the right people being in charge who any idea about tech matters and or how to organise themselves. The ATC case was just an example of a system not being fit for purpose despite it being funded and not getting anything for large sums of money already spent. The same scenario is the same even at the higher level of hands on 'Combat' part of the service, in that large amounts of money are wasted yet there s a lack of capability at the sharp end due to poor leadership and past decisions. Every sympathy with those who actually strive to keep it going DESPITE the poor leadership and back up from up top.
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The Armed Forces mantra at present is 'Managing Decline', the RAF is a subset of that.
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Traditionally the VSO in the RAF were from the cohorts that had trained for 3 years as cadets. In 1990 they led an air force of over 100,000. Shortly after the numbers dropped to under 60,000 and the last of these cohorts will have retired a few years ago. The strength is now below 35,000.
The point is that the pool from which VSO are appointed has declined to third; admittedly the RAF 4* posts are now only CAS/CinC Air Command. Will this impact on leadership capability, especially as the proportion of capable SNCO/JO/SO who chose to leave early is probably greater in relation to the strength now? |
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