|
@heights good
I thought I would have a go at your list to try and add a bit of balance: 99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers, Some aircrew that have spent much of their careers at the same MOB - esoecially if it is the only one that operates a particular type. Brize, Odiham, Benson, Waddington and previously Lyneham all had their ‘mafia’ that rarely moved. Plus now we have Force HQs there are also staff jobs in the same place can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job, But the flip side to this is that you can also be given your notice within 1-2 months. The commercial sector is not known for being nice when the company’s chips are down they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap, Yeah, right. My better half works in the City and if she told her boss he was crap then she would be out of a job in a month. they have tenants rights, To what? Given the correct tools to do the job, Only if the company can afford it. Plenty of corporate manslaughter cases if you Google them - one of the first in the UK was against P&O Ferries and there have been plenty in the railway business are compensated for nights away, What like LSA, Overnight Subsistence and Op Allowance? have houses fit to live in, The same houses we can buy and live in? can have a private life, I haven’t “lived on the patch” since 2002 can keep work and home life 100% separate, In the Commercial world then you are expected to answer calls and tele-conferences any time of the day or night have hotels paid for by their company up-front, Last time I stayed in a HRG Central Hotel Booking Service hotel it was paid for? can refuse to do anything they are asked to do, Yes, and if the company doesn’t like it they will show you the door! can plan their life more than a month in advance, Have you ever heard of an Airline Roster? You are often a slave to it just 4 weeks hence. can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside, Yup, got me on that. The trust shown by the Armed Forces policies on its personnel is exceptionally poor Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it, See first answer - plenty have stayed at or close to their MoBs Dont have to move house every 2 yrs, Average posting is 3 years with some going to 5 these days. Getting a posting to another Sqn or the FHQ at the same location also more likely. are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one, Lots of this goes on in the Commercial sector - people get hired and fired quickly and the rest have to pick up the pieces are not sent on bollocks courses, Oh yes they are. HSE, D&I and all that is just as prevalent in the civil sector can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult, The only places you can’t go as a Service person are probably places that you would want the Security Flt to guve you some tips on anyway!! can make decisions for themselves, I make my own decisions, why can’t you? can provide their children a stable home life, Continuity of Education Allowance can keep your kids geographically stable, also during GCSE and A-Levels then preferential treatment can be given. Or you could do what many in the country do - commute. Average commute in the UK is 1 hr with over 4 million workers commuting 2 hrs. The Forces are spoiled with some of the short commuting options they are given 2 schools for their children’s entire education, With CEA help you could get a Prep School followed by a Boarding School - and if you move back to the area they can become a day pupil attend every wedding/birthday/funeral, Look at the Corporal Clott post with the link to the BALPA blog. There is a story on there from an airline pilot that missed his daughter’s wedding. I would say that is unheard of in the military Never be asked to take a life, Unless you work for the police or you are an animal vet! and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician.... Again, Policemen, Firemen, Paramedics, private contractors all have to deal with this sort of stuff Just sayin’ :cool: |
Originally Posted by Corporal Clott
(Post 10125690)
200k in what currency?!!
Even a long-haul Trg Captain doesn’t make £200k, probably more like £120k to £140k. Then they have to contribute to their pension unlike the Armed Forces who contribute 52% of our wages into AFPS - so a Flt Lt earning £50k gets £26k extra put into the pension pot per year. I think BA have just upped their employer contributions from 9% to 15% but that is still well short of our 52%. The only way you will earn mega bucks in flying is to go to the Middle East for some tax free salary action - but then that is not for everyone (I politely declined some years ago). They also will get their monies worth out of you. So, if you are thinking of going down the route of an airline pilot career, the work-life balance isn’t really any rosier than the forces - have a read of the BALPA blog if you don’t believe me: https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-...alance-Pilot-A As ever, we all have to make the choices that fit our own personal circumstances, but I don’t believe that airline flying is this wonderful Utopia with mega wages. It will be a job with many frustrations like any other. CPL Clott Been down the airline route, nearly 25 years, after 12 years RAF. Never regretted it for a moment! |
I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is! People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague. So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion. I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/ |
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools |
From the recruitment paragraph in B word's post-
If you are successful you are invited to the next stage which you then go online and book. Day 1: Maths, Verbal reasoning and 2 commuter based skills tests. |
Crab - brilliant, good spot :D:D:D
Although I would have thought that extreme ‘commuter skills’ are essential for LHR, LGW, LCY and STN! https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img...ary/185762.jpg But it raises a good point - many of my ex-mil airline mates end up spending some of their time sitting in their car at Motorway Service Stations during rush hour when on standby as their base is too far from their chosen home (normally Lincs/Cambs/Notts) to make the required reporting time. Not exactly great quality of life when doing that! |
It's interesting hearing both sides of the debate. I left the mob 18 months ago and into a broadly similar civilian flying role. Some of the 'money' reasons for leaving at option point and not waiting for full term:
- A real terms 12% pay cut since 2008 - Reduction and removal of allowances (IA, reductions in mileage allowance, 20% reduction in most subsistence allowance) - Enforced pension change from AFPS75 to AFPS15. Although the pension is still good, this change in itself costs upward of £100k. Not to mention the RPI to CPI change! - Housing issues. Housing works if you're married, or you're single. If you want to live with your partner and not be married, it's of little consequence to the package, especially when you are South East based. 'FAM' is unknown and not likely to be better. The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help. Outside of money, stability is a huge issue with the RAF, with no roster or schedule you're effectively on standby 24/7. You can't plan dinner with friends. You can't really go away for the weekend. You're regularly pinged last minute for detachments or last minute trips. Things change...a lot, and often not due to the user, but due to inefficiencies in planning and tasking stages. Posting stability has improved, but there is no guarantee you won't get posted to the other side of the country for 3 years. After leaving I'm on a comfortable 6 figures (not adding pension or allowances or bonuses), work up to 14 days a month, live in the same area, don't go into work if I'm not flying and don't have to deal with the day-to-day Service annoyances (JPA, Imprests, CCS, SDO, JOD, GPCs, IRT, RSOI). Sure, I miss seeing my RAF buddies daily, but most realise that the grass IS greener, unless you are one of the few where the RAF really fits (children in private school, married quarter, PA etc, or you've escaped the frontline and work mon-fri). I had an awesome time, met awesome people, but glad I didn't listen to those who have never actually experienced life 'outside', and seem determined to convince people that ever-reducing Ts & Cs and ever-increasing workload is normal (although I'm sure that may be the case for some airlines as well!). |
The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help. The bit you need to read is: Employer contribution rate payable for the implementation period: 52.4% of pensionable pay for officers and 49.6% for other ranks (equivalent to 50.4% overall) Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works. Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum: Normally the hours target is between 86 and 90 hrs, and BA dont care how that work is done so long as its all covered, so it could be a 9 day Australia (44hrs), 5 day HKG (24hrs) and a 4 day LAX (20hrs) or 5-6 x 15 hr E Coast trips depending on your seniority There is no typical month, theoretically you could do a months work in 12 days by doing 4 x 3 day LAS, but if you went to LOS/CAI you'd be away 22 days a month. Luckily for all it doesnt work like that so most end up with a fair mixture. In terms of time off downroute the furthest 24 hrs LAS and shortest 48 is SFO, nowhere is more than 48 except where frequency or schedule demands it. |
I think some of us approach it from the standpoint of a FJ pilot and some from that of an ME pilot. Those are two very different starting points and will lead to very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad.
That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world. I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative. BV |
In the US reservists still play a vital role in the US Air Force.
The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets. Two US Air National Guard Wings are to be equipped with the Lockheed Martin F-35. |
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10126944)
No fallacy. Have a read here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...4_Feb_2015.pdf
The bit you need to read is: So it’s not made up, it’s a fact. Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works. Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum: To me that doesn’t sound like the grass is greener at all? :confused: Looks like you’re a/was aFJ driver, so probably very different programming wise. One day’s notice of a 6 week detachment or a week’s trip is not uncommon for many others in Rotary/ME world. If the RAF works for you, great, but I think the younger generation, for reasons mentioned above, feel a lack of loyalty to them by the Service and will vote with their feet accordingly. |
There is a lot more young people paying to get their civil licences than there are young people joining the Air Force and learning to fly for free.
|
Would it be possible to clarify the 51% into the pension bit? Is it not a FS scheme? Each year buys a fraction of your FS?
If they are paying 51% of your salary into a pension pot as a lump sump, I would suggest that is exceeding generous and you would be hard pushed to match that in any company outside of the RAF. |
As a pilot in the sift for 2 months now I would happily fill one of the 800 spaces!
Apparently only taking a handful of pilots on each IOT at the moment... one presumes down to the training backlog. |
Originally Posted by heights good
(Post 10124237)
Indeed.
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers, can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job, they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap, they have tenants rights, Given the correct tools to do the job, are compensated for nights away, have houses fit to live in, can have a private life, can keep work and home life 100% separate, have hotels paid for by their company up-front, can refuse to do anything they are asked to do, can plan their life more than a month in advance, can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside, Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it, Dont have to move house every 2 yrs, are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one, are not sent on bollocks courses, can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult, can make decisions for themselves, can provide their children a stable home life, 2 schools for their children’s entire education, attend every wedding/birthday/funeral, Never be asked to take a life, and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician.... |
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
(Post 10126961)
I think some of us approach it from the standpoint of a FJ pilot and some from that of an ME pilot. Those are two very different starting points and will lead to very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad.
That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world. I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative. BV |
Originally Posted by cargosales
(Post 10127037)
Sorry but from the average civvie's point of view / employment status, that list of stuff is complete rubbish. And incredibly patronising towards the 99% of civvies for whom it is just not true.
|
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10126213)
I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is! People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague. So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion. I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/ Some of you guys just don’t get it, there is a whole, huge, world outside the RAF with a WAY better lifestyle! My close relative is a long haul training captain who made OVER 200k according to his P60! So the long haul senior captain on 178K, as in your scale, plus 20 % training looks good to me! Frankly as a former line training Captain myself, my extra pay for training ( and as a ex RAF QFI,, not FJ, just JP, ) was money for old rope! Very satisfying and rewarding though, to help get our younger, keener guys prepare for command. If you have not experienced the outside world, airline flying PLUS the chance to run your own business and determine your OWN lifesty and future, dont knock it ! |
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10126213)
I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):
British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is! People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague. So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion. I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/ai...t-the-culture/ Some of you guys just don’t get it, there is a whole, huge, world outside the RAF with a WAY better lifestyle! My close relative is a long haul training captain who made OVER 200k according to his P60! So the long haul senior captain on 178K, as in your scale, plus 20 % training looks good to me! Frankly as a former line training Captain myself, my extra pay for training ( and as a ex RAF QFI,, not FJ, just JP, ) was money for old rope! Very satisfying and rewarding though, to help get our younger, keener guys prepare for command. If you have not experienced the outside world, airline flying PLUS the chance to run your own business and determine your OWN lifestle and determine your OWN future, YOURSELF, dont knock it ! SORRY, seems it is a double, uneditable, double post! |
Not trying to knock it but I am trying to add a bit of balance. For some it works in the RAF and for some it doesn’t, the same for the airlines, some love it and some don’t having jumped ship. I just fear that some of our people jump at it with their eyes wide shut and so that’s why it’s important to lay all of the facts out in the open - warts and all for both sides. There must be something in it given the number of aircrew I hear that are asking to rejoin in recent months.
comme ci comme ca |
I think the numbers speak for themselves. If the military is undermanned to the tune of 800 pilots then clearly the grass actually is greener on the other side. For some, life is good and they still enjoy the job, but clearly there are not enough people who enjoy it to keep the manning numbers balanced.
I don't see how things will improve in the future as the system seems geared now to work better for shorter engagement periods. I was always surprised how many students were already calculating their options and laying the ground work for their next job. IMHO allowing pilots to switch to a reserve role would be a good start to help bridge the flow and maybe even encourage some people back. I would quite happily return for 3 days a week and supplement the reduced income with my own business, I'd even suck up some time on Q. Otherwise, money does talk, but I don't think there is the appetite to offer a genuinely enticing FRI. The small amount they offered me to stay was less than one months salary in the job I took up after leaving. I'm sure there was some uptake, but if those people were staying anyway then its really money down the drain in terms of actually retaining people. |
The numbers aren’t because the grass is greener but for more reasons than that. The NAO report spells out some of them. Also, it is ‘aircrew’ not just pilots making up the 800, again buried in the document. The leaving rate is not much higher than normal, but there are 3 reasons why we are in this predicament.
1. We bought a flying training system for the needs of SDSR10 - the same requirement where we sacked 170 baby pilots, stopped WSO training and slowed down WSOp training. They are still delivering the same numbers for 2010 at the moment. Then we had SDSR15 where we were told to take 2 new Typhoon sqns, take in P8 and double the size of our RPAS fleet with Protector. That was great news but there was no extra money to increase the training schools. 2. We have recruited shed loads of baby pilots in the last couple of years, but due to point 1 we can’t train them all. If we trained them all overnight then the best part of 40% of the deficit would be gone. 3. We, the UK, have sold a bunch of aircraft with RAF training courses that have made the situation even worse for some fleets! So the current exit rate is not the reason why we are where we are. It is effectively a series of decisions and circumstances that has influenced the current situation. If we keep peddling the news that the grass is greener when it probably isn’t (it’s just different with different challenges and opportunities) then we run the risk of people leaving for a job that also isn’t really for them. |
If there were a pay rise commsurate with my anticipated pension at pension point, an opportunity to cash in lump sum gratuity whilst serving, and not having my pension frozen on FTRS, I may have considered staying. But it's not.
Bottom line, to serve past 38, you'd be bonkers. In my case, MoD are getting to keep someone who otherwise they would be paying 12k pension per annum as well as me running the risk of getting hit with income tax if they change the rules on lump sum gratuity. The 5 years salary you lose by an inability to serve to 65 and no option for regulars to take a 60/70/80% contract as you get on in the tooth is another rather major issue for me and considering you will be at the top of your tree, costs you pot a lot of cash at this point. Easily doable, you can still do a 6 monther on a 60% with pre deployment stuff, just not much else! I have friends in their first summer at a charter who with overtime on shorthaul have turned over 95k in their first year. The sums quoted above do not include the 10-15k in allowances, the tax perks, staff travel, bonuses and actually getting a representative pay rise for what they do. (airline industry 25% Vs 2% for me in the mob over the last decade). I've had a hoofing time, but so have my mates in the industry, who don't get treated like they are committing fraud every time they claim subsOh, that's right they dont claim subs, it's given to them like we used to get. The MoD needs to wake up and smell the coffee, if it wants to retain, STOP penalising reservists by not paying pension as FTRS you cheapskates! You need to pay a much bigger salary post pension point to account for the real world drop in pay you incur by deciding to stay. You need to consider early access to the lump sum and you need to realise that a 50% pension of cock all is still less than the 21% BA pay out over a lifetime of decent wages and a pay rise! It absolutely is about the money, as well as not knowing whether the government are going to continue to cut our benefits past summer, as they can't seem to decide on where the money is coming for to prevent capability cutbacks! Done the sums, as have most of us. There is close to an 800k disparity between what I will finish up with between leaving at 38 and joining a airline and staying on. And staying on isn't the most lucrative option! The MoD can spin the figures, the pension scheme is nowhere near a 51% contributory. Nowhere near. |
Roving,
"The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets." A commonly held but inaccurate view. The RAuxAF flying squadrons, and the RNVR Air branch, were disbanded for two main reasons, one that they were simply running out of aircrew and with the doing away of National Service pilots they would not be able to field even one complete squadron with aircrew! The second was that the 1957 White paper was about to reduce Fighter Command massively in an ill guided rush to missiles, and an accurate recognition that the main Soviet threat to the UK was in intermediate range ballistic missiles, which all the Hunters and Javelins in the world could do nothing to protect against, so another 20 Auxiliary squadrons which would have to be re-equipped and some method of manning them found, was an obvious target. On top of that there was the Conservative mandate to reduce defence expenditure at the same time as spending an absolute fortune developing the thermonuclear weapon. |
I left about 5 years ago.
51% of my leaving basic, top rate, Flt Lt Salary was less than I made in allowances and overtime in the last year. Just saying. |
Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10127014)
Would it be possible to clarify the 51% into the pension bit? Is it not a FS scheme? Each year buys a fraction of your FS?
If they are paying 51% of your salary into a pension pot as a lump sump, I would suggest that is exceeding generous and you would be hard pushed to match that in any company outside of the RAF. |
I was thinking just the same thing. I could be (probably am) being a bit thick, but I thought our annual pension contribution was calculated on the basis of salary x (years served / 47). So to get to 51% contributions surely you’d have to be serving beyond 23ish years? If there were a pay rise commsurate with my anticipated pension at pension point, an opportunity to cash in lump sum gratuity whilst serving, and not having my pension frozen on FTRS, I may have considered staying. Bottom line, to serve past 38, you'd be bonkers. In my case, MoD are getting to keep someone who otherwise they would be paying 12k pension per annum as well as me running the risk of getting hit with income tax if they change the rules on lump sum gratuity. The 5 years salary you lose by an inability to serve to 65 and no option for regulars to take a 60/70/80% contract as you get on in the tooth is another rather major issue for me and considering you will be at the top of your tree, costs you pot a lot of cash at this point. Easily doable, you can still do a 6 monther on a 60% with pre deployment stuff, just not much else! Your £12k model isn’t quite there in my humble opinion. Firstly, for every year you stay your pension is growing by roughly £1k as by then your career average is starting to flatten. Further, if you go PAS then your earning potential plus all of your salary is pensionable. Last time I looked Level 35 was about £82k, which is all pensionable and equivalent to senior Wg Cdr or Jnr Gp Capt. Also, until recently for Flt Lts there was a £20k transfer bonus (a 2 year measure). You can serve to at least 70 in FTRS-land if you wish - indeed there is one aircrew mate that fits that right now. :eek: Some of the figures quoted on here are either: 1. Someone who has left with significant RAF wide-body hours with various training ticks getting a senior First Officer on long haul. That is not the norm amongst RAF Pilot leavers. 2. Someone that has taken 15yrs + to get to Training Captain, but hey that’s enough time for us all to get to CAS or CDS to earn the big wonga. I personally think the money whether staying in or leaving is there or there abouts. It’s the whole deal that causes issue and the biggest problem is that we pay people to leave at 18/40 or 20/40 and nothing more if you stay. That short-termism decision is taken by most, but is that the strategy all along? How many aircrew do we need past 40 years old? Do we need lots of Sqn Ldr Manwarings, Flt Lt Wilsons and MACR Jones in a pseudo Dads Army RAF? The average length of service for Aircrew is about 20 years and so that is probably about right. The big problem is that we have failed to invest in our flying training system and so don’t have the capacity or capability to train the numbers we need - that is the real reason why we are short and not the fact that 100 or so leave every year. :ok: |
Originally Posted by WingsofRoffa
(Post 10127036)
As a pilot in the sift for 2 months now I would happily fill one of the 800 spaces!
Apparently only taking a handful of pilots on each IOT at the moment... one presumes down to the training backlog. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10128034)
In Parliament this afternoon, it seems the 800 pilot shortage is over the next 20 years and relates to training slots. The shortage relate s directly with a high overseas requirement. They are looking to address this by reducing the number of overseas slots. Capita then came in for some stick with some mind blowing stats. Besides a large backlog in processing applicants, many of whom drift off to other jobs, they have issued a £750m rights issue and have debts of about £1.5bn. The Minister is confident that we are not looking at another Carillion.
|
Just a couple of small thoughts. :rolleyes:
The new terms seem to best suit a Pilot who serves and leaves relatively early. Certainly, a fairly standard young ex RAF Pilot can go easily into the RHS with an ATPL on 80k. You might need to pay for your type rating. LHS and 110k is only a few years of sound flying away. Plus the perks, of course. One thing to remember about Mil flying into your dotage is, you have to stay capable of meeting the medical and fitness requirements. You do not always have any ability to influence this and, the requirements may at some point be impossible to achieve.:ooh: Of course, civil Pilots suffer medical problems but, I suggest that it can be more difficult in the military. RO pay, and it's implications for pension abatement, has always been very poor. I do suspect that the Services will find it increasingly difficult to find people willing to fill those jobs for a pittance. Finally, the Service pension cannot be cashed-in or used as much of a financial instrument. This is a big factor now that the options to do things with private pensions have opened-up. ;) OAP |
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 10127982)
No it’s 51-ish% of your annual salary, not total. Further, until recently it was final salary and now is career-averaging. But it is still one of the best pensions out there - way better than recent company ones that you can get, which are linked to the vagaries of the stock market. My Mrs’s pension has lost the best part of 60% of its value in recent years. One of the reasons why the housing market is a balooning bubble is that many are now investing in bricks and mortar. No need with a Government pension scheme (unless UK PLC goes down the toilet! :eek:)
Yes and I would like Lambo for an MT vehicle...come on, that will never happen. I think the only realistic option is some form of retention payment, not a short-term FRI, for all at 18/40 or 20/40. Either bringing forward the EDP or £20-£30k as a token jesture so that at least you get something for staying. The new Flexible Employment Strategy allows for part-time working. Early days, but it is a possibility. Your £12k model isn’t quite there in my humble opinion. Firstly, for every year you stay your pension is growing by roughly £1k as by then your career average is starting to flatten. Further, if you go PAS then your earning potential plus all of your salary is pensionable. Last time I looked Level 35 was about £82k, which is all pensionable and equivalent to senior Wg Cdr or Jnr Gp Capt. Also, until recently for Flt Lts there was a £20k transfer bonus (a 2 year measure). You can serve to at least 70 in FTRS-land if you wish - indeed there is one aircrew mate that fits that right now. :eek: Some of the figures quoted on here are either: 1. Someone who has left with significant RAF wide-body hours with various training ticks getting a senior First Officer on long haul. That is not the norm amongst RAF Pilot leavers. 2. Someone that has taken 15yrs + to get to Training Captain, but hey that’s enough time for us all to get to CAS or CDS to earn the big wonga. I personally think the money whether staying in or leaving is there or there abouts. It’s the whole deal that causes issue and the biggest problem is that we pay people to leave at 18/40 or 20/40 and nothing more if you stay. That short-termism decision is taken by most, but is that the strategy all along? How many aircrew do we need past 40 years old? Do we need lots of Sqn Ldr Manwarings, Flt Lt Wilsons and MACR Jones in a pseudo Dads Army RAF? The average length of service for Aircrew is about 20 years and so that is probably about right. The big problem is that we have failed to invest in our flying training system and so don’t have the capacity or capability to train the numbers we need - that is the real reason why we are short and not the fact that 100 or so leave every year. :ok: As another still-serving, that sounds about right m8. :ok: I am Level 35 PA Flt Lt on AFPS05 so my whole 82k is taken into account on my grandfather rights pension and if I decide to go FTRS, I get the same income plus flying pay plus another, albeit small, pension. And I get to fly every day and teach fresh-faced keen, motivated and intelligent young men and women how to fly and look forward to seeing them fly some of the best aircraft in the world. Or I could be a glorified bus driver. Taking cover...... |
I have been out for many many years and am in the process of rejoining in an FTRS flying role. I have had a fabulous lower paid flying job during my time out but the numbers quoted here are way out from potential earnings unless you are very lucky and prepared to relocate your family. Locos pay RHS around £60k. I am not ready to be compulsory retired by the CAA and FTRS potentially allows flying to 65. I’m back and I’m fit, well and excited about putting my uniform back on. The military offers a lot that just isn’t out there.
As yourself what will suit you, too many people go because everyone else is. |
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 10127982)
No it’s 51-ish% of your annual salary, not total. Further, until recently it was final salary and now is career-averaging. But it is still one of the best pensions out there - way better than recent company ones that you can get, which are linked to the vagaries of the stock market.
I was referring to annual salary not final salary - apologies if I wasn't clear. It is all rather confusing though, because the publications issues to serving personnel clearly state that every year, the MOD adds an amount equal to 1/47th of your annual pensionable earnings for that year, to your individual ‘pension pot’. However, having delved into the bowels of the original publication, Annex F sheds a dim light on the difference. Put simply, I think the 51ish% relates to the capital value that needs to be squirreled away to provide the member's benefits in any given year based on the 1/47 accrual rate. But, and it's a big but, Annex F goes on to note that all these calculations are notional - there is no actual fund and we don't actually get 51% added to our effective remuneration package. If only we did, might keep some more people in. |
Originally Posted by DrinkGirls
(Post 10128110)
I have been out for many many years and am in the process of rejoining in an FTRS flying role. I have had a fabulous lower paid flying job during my time out but the numbers quoted here are way out from potential earnings unless you are very lucky and prepared to relocate your family. Locos pay RHS around £60k. I am not ready to be compulsory retired by the CAA and FTRS potentially allows flying to 65. I’m back and I’m fit, well and excited about putting my uniform back on. The military offers a lot that just isn’t out there.
As yourself what will suit you, too many people go because everyone else is. Ok, put it another way, if you could secure a decent LH job as SFO with a legacy, or the realistic opportunity to be LHS within 3 years for a loco on 120K, would you say that it is a no-brainer? Luck really isn't in it, hard qualifications and experience is the main factor here. The CAA allows flying under an ATPL on multicrew till 65, so there is no issue there. I don't know many who haven't left and are now on at least 20K more than they left with within the mob. That includes some now working part time. I don't know many flying for the likes of J2, Easy etc whom haven't achieved command within 3-5 years. Yes and I would like Lambo for an MT vehicle...come on, that will never happen. I think the only realistic option is some form of retention payment, not a short-term FRI, for all at 18/40 or 20/40. Either bringing forward the EDP or £20-£30k as a token jesture so that at least you get something for staying. The average length of service for Aircrew is about 20 years and so that is probably about right. |
Sorry Vinrouge but that is just not correct. The average length of service of pilots leaving the Service in 2017 was 19yrs and 7 months and for WSO it was 24yrs and 10 months. See page 82 of the following links for the stats: https://assets.publishing.service.go...2017-08239.pdf
As for your other ‘facts’ they are equally doubtful. Locos don’t pay anywhere near the money you’re talking about - at EJ or Ryan you’ll be lucky to get just over half what you’re claiming. There are quite a lot of people wanting to rejoin or come back as FTRS at the moment. The ‘grass’ for them is definately not the right shade. I’ll say it again, the reason why we have an aircrew shortage is because we are not set up to train enough. Look at the outflow figures in the link above and the fact is obvious - in 2017 110 pilots left and we trained less than half that (stats on page 68 - average ET/PVR about 50-60 per year). The maths isn’t that difficult! |
Would the RAF accept foreign old farts...?
:} |
Sorry, you are wrong.Loco pay:
easyJet (UK Contract pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools) Easy Fo base is 51k, not including allowance of of 20 quid per sector. So add another 7k on that. 57k. That doesn't include overtime. Increasing to 105k base as a skipper with an anticipated 12k on top flying pay. Top pay for a captain at easyJet is in excess of 136K. jet 2: Jet2.com pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools FO base 58k, climbing to 66k with anticipated allowance of 2800. Day off payments of 300 quid a day. Captain base, 100k, with an anticipated allowance of 6k. Day off overtime payment 470 quid. Ryanair, despite their working conditions are offering skippers between 120-150k euro a year. As for the age of leavers, I'd be interested to see if that includes all GD branch, including hanger on staffers, or those who actually fly, and which stream. Those stats include pretty much the main cadre of VSO who will of course stay on till 55, or certainly much longer. 1* and above They account for 20% of the pilot cadre. see page 27. It also shows us down a whopping 23% for Junior Officer pilots. No agenda, just pointing out facts. And I agree the grass isn't greener. But one thing you absolutely cannot argue is that the financial settlement in any way compares to the commercial world. It doesnt, especially after the 10 year pay freeze. Reality is, many ARE going direct legacy carrier and those that aren't are looking at Direct entry command with a number of smaller but reputable carriers. Some in their second year as first officers have turned 100k when short notice overtime has been accounted for. The flying pay review screwed the pooch by not putting aircrew on a similar scheme to the Docs and the Lawyers. Last real opportunity to stop stop the outflow tap, sadly missed. |
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 10128364)
The average age of pilots leaving the Service in 2017 was 19yrs and 7 months and for WSO it was 24yrs and 10 months.
Historically that appears to be the norm. Given a 38/16 ToS, some pilots retiring at 55 (38 years) and others retiring at earlier option points, it all appears predictable. The unpredictable was the wholesale chopping of fleets. Look at the outflow figures in the link above and the fact is obvious - in 2017 110 pilots left and we trained less than half that |
The CAA allows flying under an ATPL on multicrew till 65 |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 17:14. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.