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-   -   RCAF Hornet replacement. (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/604606-rcaf-hornet-replacement.html)

chopper2004 6th Dec 2021 18:16

Finland picks the 35?
 
Rumor mill just now from local press suggests Finland has picked the F-35…

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...jets-iltalehti

By chance today is their national holiday as it’s their Independence Day…

cheers

SLXOwft 6th Dec 2021 18:50

Interesting slant on RCAF thinking by Dr. Richard Goette (who is an air power academic and Canadian Air Force historian. In the Department of Defence Studies at the CFC [Canadian Forces College] in Toronto, he lectures on command, air power and the RCAF. Richard also teaches CFC’s Joint Command and Staff Programme and National Security Programme and is a Master of Defence Studies supervisor.)

https://publications.gc.ca/collectio...0-2020-eng.pdf

However it was SEAD capability that took me there (though Gripen would offer the option of RBS-15 Mk IV anti ship missile if Canada wanted to introduce such a capability :E):

For instance, suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) is an important prerequisite for a successful air campaign to ensure the safety of air crews and freedom of action for operations. Notably, in recent air campaigns SEAD is usually achieved before RCAF assets are employed either because a) there are minimal enemy air defences to begin with (i.e., in the case of Op IMPACT) or b) allied air forces have already suppressed most enemy air defences before the arrival of RCAF assets in theatre (i.e., Op MOBILE). Operating in an A2/AD campaign against integrated air defences in which SEAD efforts have not been completely successful and air superiority is still being contested offers a variety of challenges for the RCAF. For one, it would necessitate a robust defensive suite and/or low-observability capabilities for its platforms to shield them from threats. For another, it would also require capabilities to exploit the electromagnetic spectrum to protect RCAF forces and degrade those of the enemy.
If the Canadian government follows this thinking and believes it may deploy aircraft to operate in a contested airspace with (even partially) intact defences then I can't see how it can go with anything but F-35s.

(Thread Drift Follows)
It strikes me that UK thinking has long been the same in respect of SEAD, no sustained specialist SEAD platform, no ARM to replace ALARM (the deletion of the Typhoon ALARM requirement saved a staggering:ugh: £21 Million). If SPEAR(3)-EW does materialise it will be a persistent jamming platform, and any kinetic suppression will rely on allies or acurate target identification to use munitions which are not targeted on emissions. However effective Typhoon's DASS is, Germany still sees a need for a SEAD platform. The French (in public anyway) put great faith in Rafale's SPECTRA but as this RAND report (https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RRA200/RRA231-1/RAND_RRA231-1.pdf) points out their lack of SEAD capabilities severely constrains their freedom of action. I would have thought that one lesson of the Falklands War that is still relevant is, that in order to use your air assets to their maximum effectivity, you need to be able to locate and surgically remove the enemies ability to observe their movements. I have always assumed that LO will have a limited lifespan just like any other techological advantage in war fighting.

Foghorn Leghorn 6th Dec 2021 20:08


Originally Posted by downsizer (Post 11152285)
I suppose you could argue it has no PW3 or raptor pod?

About the only difference I can think of.

True, Downsizer. Though GR4 didn’t have PW3 either at the end.

fitliker 8th Dec 2021 21:36

Those Hornets should last until the Tempests come on line :)

Bob Viking 28th Feb 2022 02:17

Hornet Replacement
 
I wonder if recent events will cause Justin to pull his finger out and make a decision?

BV

Bug 28th Feb 2022 05:43

Probably not.

Davef68 28th Feb 2022 11:29


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 11191915)
I wonder if recent events will cause Justin to pull his finger out and make a decision?

BV

Only if they can work out how to avoid the embarrassment of ordering the same thing again (like Chimo/Cormorant) or if they are so determined not to order it they choose something else (Petrel/Cyclone)

Avtur 28th Feb 2022 11:30


I wonder if recent events will cause Justin to pull his finger out and make a decision?
Bob; JT is usually more preoccupied with apologizing for historical failures than focusing on what's best for Canada's future. Current events will likely have zero impact on the speed of decision, but happy to be proved wrong.

ORAC 28th Mar 2022 17:10

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...next-warplane/

Canada picks U.S.-made F-35 fighter jet as next warplane, source says

The Canadian government has selected Lockheed Martin Corp., the American manufacturer of the F-35 fighter jet, as its preferred bidder in a $19-billion search for a new warplane.

The announcement will be made today, a source told The Globe and Mail. They were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

This development means Canada starts negotiating solely with Lockheed Martin on a contract for the combat aircraft.

If negotiations are successful, Canada could start taking delivery of new fighters as early as 2025, the source said.

Bksmithca 28th Mar 2022 17:33

ORAC
Didn't expect anything different given the amount of money Canada has poured into the F35 program. Is it the right choice???

Commander Taco 29th Mar 2022 03:08


Is it the right choice???
If you wish to operate in contested airspace, then yes, it is.

NutLoose 29th Mar 2022 11:18

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7560dd9beb.png

Lonewolf_50 29th Mar 2022 15:57

Welcome back, ORAC. :)

I noted some links to the recent (announced) USN/USMC procurements for FY 2023 ~ they reduced the intended buy of E/F Hornets from 24 to 12. (And the apparently didn't really want any, but someone on Capitol Hill decided to reduce rather than zero out the order).
Does that leave an opening for the Aussies, for example, to maybe pick up a dozen Hornets at a small discount, or is that not really an opportunity? (And is the configuration to far apart on the export model to make that a realistic opportunity?)

As for Canada, might the looming F-35 contract negotiations get extended, perhaps leaving open a chance to plus up the Hornet fleet?
he old "we'll have these new jets in this FY" line so often encounters delays ...
Anyway, just a thought.

Originally Posted by the linked article


rattman 29th Mar 2022 22:04


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 11207448)
Does that leave an opening for the Aussies, for example, to maybe pick up a dozen Hornets at a small discount, or is that not really an opportunity? (And is the configuration to far apart on the export model to make that a realistic opportunity?)

As for Canada, might the looming F-35 contract negotiations get extended, perhaps leaving open a chance to plus up the Hornet fleet?

Canada absolutely not, while I do think F-35, Super Hornets and growlers are best bucks per bang combo available atm. Canada will shoot itself in the foot instead of buying boeing.

golder 30th Mar 2022 07:27


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 11207448)
Does that leave an opening for the Aussies, for example, to maybe pick up a dozen Hornets at a small discount, or is that not really an opportunity? (And is the configuration to far apart on the export model to make that a realistic opportunity?)

Even though we are updating our Shornets to block III. We don't want any more of them. At this stage, in 2030, we retire the Shornet and 2035, we retire the Growler. 2025 will decide if we get more F-35, to take us from 72 to100.

melmothtw 30th Mar 2022 08:14

Australia only ever acquired the SH as a stop-gap until the the F-35 came online. I doubt they will look to buy any more now that F-35 deliveries are well underway.

India Four Two 30th Mar 2022 08:21


Minister defends 'rigorous' process that brought government back to F-35s
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2017239107693

The current government promised to scrap the F-35 program in 2015

Video Mixdown 30th Mar 2022 09:27


Originally Posted by India Four Two (Post 11207779)
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2017239107693

The current government promised to scrap the F-35 program in 2015

No political position can be preserved in aspic. If subsequent information shows it to have been wrong it is only common sense to change it.

Buster Hyman 30th Mar 2022 11:56

How many production lines of F-35's are there? Seems to be an awful lot of new customers...could take a while.

GeeRam 30th Mar 2022 14:03


Originally Posted by Buster Hyman (Post 11207867)
How many production lines of F-35's are there?

Three....in theory.

Fort Worth, Italy and Japan.

I think though that the first complete production one off the Italian line wasn't that long ago (last year or late 2020?) and first one off the Japanese line might be this year or was late last year?


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