In nearly 20 yrs, I have NEVER seen anyone transfer from the RAF to the Army, but literally about 20 come the other way.

aah, DA - Harrow County Girls School's finest, not

I think the above 15 or so posts illustrate so much of what is wrong with our RW aviation setup - the tri-service bickering does zip all for any of us, and inhibits us at every step.

How about going radical - post everyone, under whatever guise to JHC, allowing freedom of movement between fleets as required - with a natural bias of people to their home service. We already have significant numbers of AAC backfilling Puma, FAA backfilling AH, and RAF backfilling AAC and FAA QHI slots.

This would allow a more flexible manning structure, fitting in with ever changing manning priorities. (The incoming exodus from AAC when the last FRI time bar runs out in 2 years, for example).

Additionally, massive savings could be made by rationalising the number of headquarters, rather than triplicating many roles in what is now a small community.

If we hadn't had tri-service bickering, then Blackhawk & Seahawk may well have been a single platform solution to many of Wildcat \ Puma \ green Merlin's roles (UK company procurement aims aside), saving God knows how much in procurement, training, and giving us sensible economies of scale, rather than having a large number of small fleets.

I personally know two.

One was a rockape who went to a not-so secret campsite near the Welsh border. The other was a helicopter pilot who did something very similar.

Because there would still be single service considerations: the Army would want it done their way with all of their regulations, the Navy would etc.... The upshot would be as it is now, you have multiple rule books to follow and you end up with confusing, inefficient duplication.

Let’s get really radical and put all RW into one service. Those that don’t like it can leave.

One of my fellow JTs in RAFG did the same thing.. Why a rigger would ever wish to want to be Lewis Collins always had me scratching my head, but then I saw his bad taste in women and stopped doing so.

Not even CGS wants the Apache, but he does want the money that comes with having it. Once the Army doesn't have Wildcat, the argument for the AAC starts to dwindle. Admittedly the RAF will only really have one SH type if Puma does get chopped however, the Chinook Force will still be bigger than the AAC and CHF combined! Interesting to see talk of Puma being axed; given the lift of the aircraft post update and the speed with which it can be deployed globally (as demonstrated recently in the Caribbean), it offers a capability not found elsewhere in defence, and which is basically already paid for. I would be very surprised to see it go before its 2025 OSD.

My vote would be to ditch JHC (can't see many in JHC arguing against that bit!), let CHF go fully back to Fleet, AAC assets over to RAF and allow Land to concentrate on stuff on land.

Give the Chinooks to Army and split the rest between Army and Navy and let the RAF concentrate of fixed wing...

TBM - you, and some others, clearly have no idea of the gulf that exists between the AAC and the RAF SH Force in terms of organisation, training. engineering and especially rearcrew.

Well even Australia managed the change. The RAAF does not fly helos anymore. The Army and RAN do it very well these days...

In parliament yesterday Defence Sec refused to comment on the three options for cuts or on timescale for Defence Review but staed his priorities were:-

1 the defence of Europe

2. The permanent 4 boat deterrent

3. Building a successful Carrier based strike force

As things stand, that's not a bad set of priorities. The defending Europe bit highlights what will NOT change as a result of Brexit.

We have some difficult decisions ahead and we need to be realistic that more money is not coming our way. For the majority of the British public, the amount of GDP we currently allocate to Defence is generally considered sufficient. I see no public marches demanding we cut the NHS to pay for more Defence.

Our problems have come from committing to buy too much capability for the budget we have available. The 'conspiracy of optimism' that Bernard Gray reported on is alive and well in the MoD. If we were given another £10Bn a year, within a decade we would be faced with the same issues.

Until we break our habit of overspending, we are always going to suffer.

Perhaps, I think maybe it depends on ones foreign and domestic security policy objectives. Here is a (viable) alternative:

1. The defence of the UK.
2. The permanent 4 boat deterrent.
3. The optimisation of homeland security.

Not saying I agree with either one...simply stating that there are some pretty successful nations on this planet that seem to survive and flourish with much simpler (less expensive) military hardware.

Of course most of them don't possess an IND, but p'haps we call all agree that is a slightly different dynamic.

110 years ago or so:

On 8th December 1888 Mr Edward Stanhope, Secretary Of State for War, minuted Adjutant-General Viscount Wolseley with what became known as the Stanhope memorandum. This was in reply to the very reasonable question “what is the army for?” In summary, and in order of priority, it was to:

1. Support the civil power in Great Britain
2. Garrison India
3. Garrison all fortresses and coaling stations at war footing
4. Be able to mobilise three Army Corps for home defence
5. Be able to send abroad two complete Corps (but this was “improbable”).

As a civilian I would like to see a tri-service answer to

"What are the armed services for?" and then the enabling three service's contributions. These answers should come from "what is/are the threats for the next 30 years". Get that wrong and we can be buggered.

What he actually said was this :


Although the detail must wait until after the NSCR concludes, I can assure the House that as long as I am Defence Secretary we will develop and sustain the capabilities necessary to maintain continuous at-sea nuclear deterrence, a carrier force that can strike anywhere around the globe and the armed forces necessary to protect the north Atlantic and Europe; and we will continue to work with our NATO allies. The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and I will be doing all we can to ensure that we have a sustainable budget, so that we can deliver the right capabilities for our armed forces.

Just to provide context on emphasis. He also added this :


I think that all Government Members recognise the importance of making sure that we maintain conventional forces, and the fact that we have to have a continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent; but we cannot have one and not the other. We have to ensure that we have that ability so that, if we are in a point of conflict, there is deterrence at so very many levels. That is why having robust armed forces—the Army, Navy and Air Force—is so incredibly vital.


None of which guarantees any money, obvs.

I'd like to see your opinion Langley ----

what a great phrase 'doing all we can'

Means absolutely nothing......................

right up there with 'best endeavors' for me (which again means nothing)

Arc

So the Carrier force can strike anywhere around the world, but the ground forces you need in any offensive action to back that up will simply be to protect Europe and the North Atlantic.... It does read as if one does not neccessarily support the other, one being area limited and a defensive posture, the other being global and offensive.

The second part could be read as we will provide the budget and capabilities to the armed forces proportionate to the size we intend to cut them too. :E

Make defence of the UK the number one priority as opposed to the defence of Europe?

If that policy was adopted then prepare for HUGE cuts as there is no specific threat to the safety of the UK out there and none on the horizon.

I think the priorities as stated make sense in today's world.

Nutloose,

He simply gave his top 3 priorities. It is not unreasonable to assume that he thinks the MOD should be capable of also doing other things and he specifically did not say that the ground forces were simply to protect Europe.

I don't.

Why are we STILL continuing with expeditionary warfare for one.

Nice to see Britain’s overseas territories get a mention..........

I thought we remained committed to NATO as always and the likelihood of Russian Hegemony just as much a concern to ourselves as the rest of Europe? The SNP with there sudden concern about the Russians, never quite the same during the Cold War, indicates that there are some unlikely political quarters who don't share your lack of concern about UK defence concerns.

FB

You did ask, and I write as an 80 year old patriot ex MoD scientist who has seen a lot and seen a lot of b*llocks in my time. None of what follows may be feasible or wise, just an opinion from the reasonably informed non-expert.

I can deal quickly with the old set:

Support the civil power in Great Britain is the only survivor, and should be capable of being taken as read.

Decide if we keep Falklands, Gibraltar, SBAs Cyprus etc IN THE LONG TERM and base RAF transport requirements on that, and no further.

Prioritise air defence UK and ground support NATO. RAF to concentrate on Chinook

Provide one all-arms division to support NATO; light forces para, marines to scale to support maintenance of Falklands etc. Army to maintain Apache.

Navy to scrap carriers, maintain 4 missile boats and 8 hunter killers, RAF to provide top cover when leaving/ joining. Navy to have mixed fleet frigates and smaller only.

Maximum effort on cyber warfare.

Bring back outsourced services such as maintenance, catering into MoD

Forget all the equality nonsense, it will happen by a natural osmosis process rather than PC straining.

Well whilst we’re making our minds up what we should do, looks like we might get the chance to support the French in Africa:

Britain prepares to send military helicopters for French campaign against Islamists in Sahel

By all accounts I’ve heard Mali described as France’s Afghanistan, whilst the UN MINUSMA op is widely regarded as the most dangerous UN op currently running.

All those in JHC that think you’ve got summer leave, one pace forward. Odiham stand fast!

TBN - as I recall, it was a disaster for several years because the 'assumption' was that everyone would just move across. The Army ended up with a load of helicopters they couldn't fly or maintain and a lot of pi**ed-off people.

I think anyone considering messing with our current structure would do well to examine what went wrong there.

This IS worth a read.
The whole approach and the presented status quo from the interviewed mandarin is one of "we are fully prepared, fully capable, can take on anyone, are fully funded and can do anything". :rolleyes: It would seem that little is wrong. No wonder the UK Gov does what it does. :mad:

OAP

Yes, he seems very happy to provide broad-brush answers with positive spin but won't commit to any specifics.

AFAIK, this "thinking" is the guideline that is supposed to be used to formulate UKGov Defence policy. Despite the bluff and bluster, I bet that he is really just told what there is to spend and which things to prioritise and then, to make the assessment up, to fit! :oh::sad:

So much for a Defence review to fit the real UK Defence needs.:uhoh:

OAP

If only he were just a Mandarin. He's the National Security Adviser, don'tcha know - and by implication must therefore know all about National Security...........


What could possibly go wrong etc.

Yes...a big Cheese! ;)

Obviously, fairly knowledgeable and fleet of foot (and mouth!). Notwithstanding his nimble performance in that unclassified content interview, I get the impression his views were based largely on what he has been told will-be by very senior pollies and, I failed to see much evidence that he had formed views from any personal knowledge of Defence needs and capability. Indeed on p.10 of the doc he admitted lacking sufficient knowledge about Northern flank security.
Hmmm, all in all, I remain convinced that UK Defence is based more on party political needs, less on Defence needs.

OAP

I think it's worse just money money money

Short bio here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Sedwill

EAP

I bet I know which one could pass his CFT.

PrOOne,
You say that there is no specific threat to the UK. All well and good so far, but if you cast your mind back to ground lectures about security, the first point always made was "The biggest threat to security is the perception that no threat exists". This maxim has been borne out for every conflict we have been involved in. From the Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq, etc. we have been caught short on realities of providing military support. That capability is now so perilously close to ineffectiveness, with so many capability gaps, that the Government must seriously review our military capability OR withdraw from the commitments we have made to NATO, and other bilateral agreements. The proposed EU force is a toothless paper tiger and it is time to be realistic about POTENTIAL threats and prepare accordingly. Spend more, or promise less.

Totally and utterly agree with the above.

Just look at previous conflicts in the last 30 years and ask have we the capability to do that again and the answer will probably be no. The Falklands for example is a prime interest to the UK because of the natural resources in its waters, could we fight another war for it...NO.

And the typical spiel you get about the new ship etc being 3 times more capable as its 3 predecessor's does not cut the mustard when you need it in three different places.

Who exactly has the capability and intent to invade the Falklands and overcome the existing garrison, and why would they want to?

The FI has great resources of fish and looks as if it has some oil - not on the scale of the N Sea sbut yes, resources.

But no-way are they critical to the UK - we fought the war because the people were taken over by a military dictatorship and we were right to do so. I don't think there is any real chance of a repeat in the immediate future (say 5-10 years) but it doesn't cost a great deal to keep a presence there ( great for training) except maybe the River Class boats

And we build them to keep Scots yards open rather than for fighting anyone serious -also the Fi do make a contribution - in $$ which will go up when the oil flow starts

that's why they pay back the UK govt the £millions it costs every year to keep MPA running.................oh no, that's right, they don't.

You could have said the same thing thirty odd years ago, but you miss what I was trying to get over, you need to maintain a capability for such a thing happening in the future, no matter how remote, if you don't maintain that capability and it does happen again then you have no chance of retaining it or any other part of the world we deem neccessary.
Keep cutting the Services to the bone and then you have a toss up situation, can you afford to maintain that garrison and its protection or do you move your dwindling resources elsewhere where needed.
Like it or not, the Islands do fall under the protection of UK PLC and as such you need to maintain a credible force to ensure they do.