I'd be more worried about all those old SSN's etc parked up..... but it's only Rosyth & Plymouth I guess

You're wrong.

Incorrect?

ASW - Nothing organic. If weather is ok and you have them embarked then you have the rotary option.

AD - Nothing organic. No fixed wing AEWC for long-range search and zero surface to air missiles. If you have them embarked, armed and ready, you may have F-35.

Modern CIWS - Gun only CIWS salvaged from other vessels. Needs to predict missile course and engagement limited to very close range. Against modern (i.e. post-CIWS era) manoeuvring or very high speed weapons - er no. Plans to update for a RIM116 type capability - nope, nothing yet.

The QE is not built or funded for carrier strike. I do recognise the 'budgets and C2' argument as it is often used but the idea of a major upgrade in capabilities this late in the day are wishful thinking. I am also used to the incredulous looks from the USN / USMC when we explain we intend to operate the QE class in the littoral environment as a helicopter assault ship.

Again, carrier strike is an expensive business and with the QE class we did not join the club. We have to make the best of what we have and not imagine our way into thinking we have carrier strike. We also need to be realistic about taking a vessel of this size and value close enough to the shore to make helicopter assault a viable option.

WTF do you think organic ASW is other than the embarked rotary?

You beat me to it.


I think JTO is of the opinion that if it isn't a Nimitz with 50 TACAIR, Growler, Hawkeye etc then it isn't Carrier Strike.


I would suggest that there may be more than one level of CS.


Crowsnest + F35 = Air defence. Perhaps not to the same scale as E2 plus F14, but those days are gone for the cousins as well. To suggest that she'll not deploy with those cabs in the event of an air threat is a bit of a stretch.


ASW - I suspect 9 Merlin may be a significantly more potent organic ASW capability than half a dozen SH60.


CIWS. CIWS is CIWS. RIM116 is a PDMS, which strangely enough can be applied to SeaCeptor, for which a fit is possible (if not funded). POint being, the ship is big enough and capable enough.


There are some elements that the USN are used to having that the RN will have to relearn. Again, there's room in the ship and in the power infrastructure.


It's a question of political appetite.

By your premise, USN CSGs are not carrier strike as they rely on "non-organic" RW assets.

The OCEAN hull was originally developed from an existing commercial car carrier design.
Had to be upgraded to military specs in some respects, for example with regard to compartmental segregation, etc, but the steel plate thicknesses and general hull design are pretty much standard car carrier.

Err, no. The parent for Ocean's hullform was CVS, with (some obvious) mods above the waterline.

Two shipbuilders tendered for the contract – VSEL and SwanHunter. On 11 May 1993, the government announced that VSEL had won the contract.

The build was to commercial standards, reducing costs significantly and leading to a construction spend of £154 million (£283 million in 2015). VSEL, a warship manufacturer, sub-contracted the build phase to the commercial Kværner yard in Govan Glasgow. The fact that VSEL's bid was £71 million lower than Swan Hunter's was the source of political controversy and led to a National Audit Office investigation to determine whether the competition was fair. The report, published on 29 July 1993, stated that, although VSEL did subsidise its bid, the MoD was right to award the contract to VSEL because the subsidy was much smaller than the difference between the two bids; VSEL's bid was £139.5 million compared to Swan Hunter's £210.6 million. The Times also suggested that the subsidy was as little as £10 million.



In anticipation of the report, the Financial Times described the different philosophies adopted by the two bidders; while Swan Hunter viewed the ships as entirely military, "VSEL thought the design was basically a merchant ship with military hardware bolted on." VSEL's decision to sub-contract the build phase took advantage of lower overheads at a civilian yard as well as efficiency drives by its parent, Kværner.

The Wiki-fu is strong in this one. If only Wiki were a reliable source.

I know it was a nail in Swan Hunter's coffin..........

But Beleive in The WikiForce NaB............................

"The hull design is based on the design of the Invincible Class aircraft carrier (also built by Vickers) with a modified superstructure."

I have seen the light. The band............ the band etc....

JTO

1. What do you think an ASW frigate uses for delivering ASW weapons at range? What do you think a carrier should use?

2. Surely Air Defence means fighters, as surface to air is Anti Air Warfare? Since you mention AEW and surface to air missiles in the same sentence, are you aware F-35B has demonstrated the ability to cue shipborne missile systems?

Swans were right to put that bid in at the price quoted. In refits in Devonport 2001 and again in Portsmouth in 2002 the Navy spent strong money rectifying some of the skipiness of the original build by VSEL and Kavs on the low bid. Particularly remember the pretty dank conditions of the ASRM mess, so dank it caused problems with TB for inhabitants as I recall. (Low quality piping/air con).
You only get what you pay for.
(Right in the sense that they were fairly honourable people trying to build a ship at a fair and correct price for everyone to be happy about).

WEBF,

My second ship, the Ajax, used Ikara ;)

Brazil announce purchase of HMS Ocean for £84 million

Brazil has now confirmed the purchase of British helicopter carrier HMS Ocean.

We were informed by a source in the Brazilian defence community that the vessel has been sold for £84 million. Roberto Lopes has informed us that the purchase of HMS Ocean by the Brazilian Navy was confirmed within the last week by Brazilian Defence Minister Raul Jungmann.

We understand the first group of four Brazilian officers will head to the UK within the next few weeks. We also understand that there are doubts over the retention of the Phalanx CIWS by Brazil but are unsure regarding the reasons why. The vessel will remain in the UK until October or November this year......

According to Brazilian journalist Roberto Lopes in an e-mail to us, the ship’s cost to the Brazilian Navy is fixed at £84.3 million pounds (312 million Brazilian Reais). Commander of the Brazilian Navy, Admiral Eduardo Leal Ferreira, claimed that the price of Ocean seemed “convenient”.....

We understand from Roberto Lopes via e-mail, the source who let us know that Brazil has already submitted a payment plan for the vessel, that the officers involved in the ship acquisition process are optimistic and are already discussing details beyond the technical and financial assessments that have been made, such as the name of the ship.

“Minas Gerais is the strongest designation at the time. Rio de Janeiro was ‘saved’ for the future aircraft carrier. However, nothing definite. Only with the execution of the acquisition is that defined.”

and so 2018 starts - another capability cut

Not Unnoticed