I would bet
 

I would bet:-

1. The A/C will still be delivered.
2. The Price will now be less than it would have been.

Don't like the man, but he scored this time.

I agree: part of that decision was the PR/Image piece ... I'd suggest more than half. It's politics.

I can see where he is coming from with his buy American and bring back industry and jobs to the US idea, but then he wants to scrap an aircraft built in the US, for the US, generating income for the US and employing US citizens who may be out of a job if it is cancelled... Ironic isn't it, especially as he flies around in his 757 pimp mobile with British engines and great big RR logos on the cowls...

http://static.businessinsider.com/im...-400/image.jpg

"There are number of inaccuracies in Trump's Tweet." - surely not!

It's Social Media for heavens sake...

and do you think he cares?

He's got the result he wants - lots of people running about screaming - same as taking that phone call fromTaiwan. Couple of minutes and he's got the Chinese on the back foot......

Harry, are you suggesting that the President elect is a wind-up artist? :E
Shirley Knot! :cool:
(Heck, when you look at the extent he went to in order to 'wind up' the NFL back in the 1980's, which went all the way to court, he's been at this for over three decades. All social media does is make it easier for him to do so.)

Need to read the history of this , the aircraft are 'pencilled in' with Boeing as the line won't remain open for long due to declining orders for 4 engine jets..........

Heathrow Harry,

On occasions when the President and other US top leaders are gathered at a single location (eg State of The Union Address or Presidential Inauguration), there is at least one Designated Survivor at a remote location with presidential level security and a "nuclear football" military aide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_survivor

Trump should care and know, "You hope for the best and prepare for the worst." Today we are remembering a day when we didn't exactly do that, 12/7/41.

The days of the his apprentice entertainment shows are over, now it is for real, no longer fiction. He has yet to figure that out.

But, that is what the US Government and Department of Defense have figured out, given the smaller and dangerous world we live in and the technical challenges that exist today. That is why we order new Presidential doomsday aircraft to replace those that are 30 years old, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

If this moron does not take us into a nuclear war we will be fortunate.

I find it quite amazing that people insist on believing that Trump is an idiot. You may not like his ideology or his methods, but he is clearly an intelligent man. That he was able to tap into and manipulate enough people so that he could win this past election is proof enough.

Try thinking for a minute that everything he does is calculated and for a purpose and perhaps you can start to see a methodology.

Trump is a very shrewd politician. He knows full well that the new Presidential 747-8's won't be put in service until after he leaves office. And he also knows that Boeing can deliver the two aircraft for far less than they are currently asking.

I bet he'll have a lot less time for tweeting when he's doing the job for real !!

Arc

He's already working over the CEO of Boeing for a better deal and like any good businessman he doesn't need an overspec padded priced machine.

Remember, if you're paying wholesale, you've just paid too much!

Really, because he's spent the best part of two years telling us all he's anything BUT a politician? #DrainTheSwamp

Thanks RAFENG - it makes sense

And I'll bet they have a waiting line - who wants to be there for the State of the Union Address??? Worse than the Queens Speech........................

As Turbine D has pointed out, Boeing made no money on the VC-25A program. It will not make money on the replacement. In order to reduce the cost of the new aircraft the amazing number of required systems to be installed and required changes to the basic 747-8 will need to be reduced. Given the purpose of the aircraft, I doubt that anyone will step forward to do that.

Looks like you broke the code. :ok: For a theme song to hum along with any political contest, we* heartily recommend the following 44 year old ditty. The point was simply to win the election. They'll figure out the rest later, to include presidential transport.

(*plural, since it includes the voices in my head)

I have I mind a past President that many wrote off as going to be useless who IMHO was one of your best. Is it true the office maketh the man?

It changes each one who has had the job, some more than others. Were you thinking of Harry Truman?

No, more in living memory

Reagan?

I could totally understand the problems Boeing are having with cost, as mentioned before a friend was involved with the cancelled helicopter contract and they were getting stuff like

"We need to fit something in the avionics bay"
"What does it do?"
"Classified"
"What size it it?"
"Classified"
What power does it need?"
"Classified"
"What does it weigh."
"Classified"

And so it went on.

Nutloose, you're spot on.
According to Av Week (Trump Vows To 'Negotiate' Price Of Boeing's New Air Force One | Ares)

Think about that for a moment - ~$3 Billion in R&D - the actual aircraft are on top of that! :uhoh:
Boeing lost over $250 million building the current VC-25A aircraft - as noted earlier some of that was due to a poor program management, but much of it was underestimating the work required to meet the USAF requirements (adding things like dual APUs, aerial refueling, and EMP hardening to a passenger aircraft doesn't come cheap :ugh:)
As noted, I know more than I can say about the new aircraft requirements but if the USAF gets everything they are asking for, little more than the airframe structure will be common with a 747-8i. As I noted before, I was stunned at the level of system redesign that will be needed to meet the AF1 requirements - and that was just for the engines...:ugh:

It's not your average commute, and when you buy in small production runs the cost per unit is steep.

Now, if I was Airbus, I'd be putting together a cheeky submission...:E:E:E

http://www.superyachts.com/syv2/news...ing-palace.jpg

Nutty, correct, I wonder what our cousins' take on him is.

Buster, could be a CoG problem with the beast in the tail. I like the lift though, avoids the potential for trips and saves your knees running up the stairs. It would however mean the end of the iconic pose at the door of AF 1. I guess the Secret Service would vote for that as that top if steps wave must be the most vulnerable moment in any trip.

"top if steps wave must be the most vulnerable moment in any trip."

Almost always at a totally controlled airfield, normally military - if he's not safe there where is he safe? Compared to being out in crowds -even if they mainly his supporters??

Td,

Fascinating insight...which leads one to wonder if there are fundamental differences in the AAR system developed for the E-4 and that for the VC-25, both are adaptions of the basic 747-200 airframe and were to be refuelled from the same tankers.

Similarly the adaptation of the airframe and systems for EMP reasons would have been required for the E-4 mission and the VC-25 mission would have perhaps built on that as opposed to a completely 'new' system etc.

One could also imagine that the power generation and distribution requirements of the comms gear on the E-4 would have provided a basic, proven, deployed and accepted design from which the VC-25 could have evolved.

Or have I missed the point entirely and the E-4 lessons were in reality inappropriate for the VC-25 programme?

Ummm....isn't the E-4 a 747-200 design of roughly the same era as the VC-25, and also currently being considered for replacement on obsolescence grounds? So what commonality would it have with a 747-800-based solution anyway?

PDR

PDR precisely....... E-4A contract was 1973 with a service entry in 1974...Vc-25 RFP mid 1980s and entered service in 1990... so by the time the VC was being procured the E-4 had a decade plus in service.

So AAR system might have been a straight copy across.. so may have a number of EMP/ power generation/ comms aspects..

It would be interesting to understand how Boeing, having produced seven E-4 airframes were caught 'short' of some of the issues needed to develop the VC-25...especially one of the specific adaptions which may well have been evolutions of the E-4 designs.

If however as you mention the replacement E-4 is also being studied as part of the VC programme then the increased R+D may well be appropriate for the more complex and challenging task...

PDR, I've had the same thought that perhaps some of what was being asked for was really applicable to an E-4 replacement more than the AF1 mission.
I wasn't involved in the original E-4 so I don't know how much carry-over there might have been between that and the current VC-25 - I do know the VC-25 has different engines (CF6-80C2 vs. CF6-50s for the E-4) so in my area it was totally different. There was a great deal of 'wheel inventing' going on during the VC-25, but I don't know how much of that might have been 're-inventing':rolleyes:


BTW, there already is an 'elevator' option available for the 747-8i - it's fitted to at least one of the VIP aircraft (although it's done via STC during the executive interior refit - Boeing doesn't do it).

Perhaps Boeing should call Trump's bluff.

They could say they will supply two standard B-747-8i at the normal price and whatever else you want to install is down to you at your own expense!

:E

HH, I am sure that the SS cover approaching 100% risk but remember a sniper could be over a mile away and there have been terrorist attacks by members of the military.

Then of course the simple Humpty Dumpty syndrome

well I know someone who fell between the steps of the plane and the aircraft door - she was sober but too busy taking in the view - several nasty (but superficial) grazes and cuts)

And a guy leaving the plane, missing a step, and going all the way to the bottom - two cracked ribs and a broken leg

Unlikely to happen to POTUS but with Trump in place................

AIUI the 747-2 is an obsolescent aeroplane which can no longer be manufactured and no longer meets current certification requirements anyway. I am led to believe that "current" 747s have significantly fuel, electrical and information systems architectures - hence the need to redesign these for a new VC-25. Similarly, topday's secure comms systems are very different to those of the earl 90s, with different wiring and antenna requirements. Add in current military needs (a decent Link-32 implementation, plus the best available DASS, would seem to be a minimum) and you rapidly end up with a new aeroplane needing a couple of billion in non-recurring engineering (which if you were looking to heckle you'd call "R&D" so it sounded excessive).

If I was asked for a big-handfulls guestimate for a VC-25 replacement something like $2-3bn would feel reasonable, frankly.

PDR

You don't need all that secure stuff, just borrow Hilary's laptop and do it all on that.

PDR-1 is correct - the (very expensive) troubles Boeing had in getting the new 747 right clealry show it wasn't a simple upgrade from the older models.....................

Mike Pence gets to eat at a Wendy's / Dairy Queen in Big Sky Country.

Looks like he has dealt with Boeing before and they mentioned a price and it bore no resemblance to final Invoice.

Good long term thinking! Let's punish the next three or four presidents cause you don't like this one.

just a swag- but although BA will be the ' general' contractor- maybe 20 percent of the total will go directly to Boeing for the ' green airframe ' with special wiring, armour, etc. the rest of the $$$ will go to interior, comm gear, anti missile, extra apu,engines, flight test by air force, spares, etc ad naseaum.

even so , what is still puzzling is how long it takes to ' decide ' what changes to airframe are needed, and to provide wiring, hooks, brackets, stiffners, extra pieces, emp shielding, etc. EMP shielding has been around since the 60's at least- and now the use of cad-cam should make the fitting of extra brackets, etc relatively easy.