If anyone is interested in how the J performs in theatre they may like to know that it is barely able to fly the milk run on a day to day basis. They may also like to know that it is already going back home to Blighty because it is barely able to do its route job. Guess which aircraft is staying in theatre?
All talk of low level capability is way off the mark. It has hardly covered itself in glory so far never mind what the returning crews might say. I strongly suggest that the J continues to do what it does best..that is break down in America where noone is dependent on it being on time. And by the way all those people so keen to write off the venerable K should wait and see what happens when the next op kicks off.
Final point . Route queens are alive and kicking on the North Side. The J crews just love giving position reports on the AWACS check in frequency.

At least the J crews have a SOP that explains how to check in and communicate with AWACS!

Lids

The Js are indeed comming back from theatre...because the job is all but done, most of the the troops are home. A K is staying for one option, for which the J is not cleared. It will be by the end of the year however. I don't know how a K operator can poke fun at an aircraft going U/S.

And Hooker, the prop vibration, at high speed, is a problem but it only effects a couple of seats (those in line with the blades). However, as we normally carry mixed loads it has not caused any major snags. The para doors can now be opened in flight. QQ said that the door weighed too much for one loady to open. However, since they found out that the K door is also above the H&S limit, and fitted a stronger spring, it is cleared for use.

Roboabert, you are right that the US use a different method of achieving the despatch floor angle, and they fly in 2000 ft trail (more wake turb). However, that has nothing to do with the mechanics of CDS. We envisaged using the CDS system, but dropped as an ME/AE at 4000 ft trail. Meanwhile QQ are turning it into son of AE.

BASSETT
Funny how the J chaps are so touchy about their unreliable but very modern aircraft. Let me see, one of the strong selling points of the J was its superior servicability rate over the K model. Are we conveniently dropping that benchmark now or would you like to furnish us with some facts to the contrary?

Thank you fot the pointer on the J SOP's I must pick up a copy, apparently there is a chapter on The Art of Route Queening and The Fourteen Hour Day. I hear it explains how to swing a night stop in the States after a 3 1/2 hour leg.I am particularly looking forward to the bit that tells you what to pack in a samsonite when going on ones hols to America. Just how many dresses do you packwhen you have no idea when you are coming home?

I wished I shared your confidence in the likelyhood of the J having that special capability by the end of the year. Trouble is, ask a J mate if he is training below 2000 feet and you will be met by a stony silence and a perceptible glazing of the eye. I suggest it will be an awful long time before the J can do what it was originally supposed to do and we wont mention at what cost.

Oh well back to camping, swatting mozzies and doing a job properly.......How do you cross the Atlantic?

Like the playful banter, chums, but perhaps just be a wee bit careful about talking about capabilities of assets supporting on-going operations? Else the Thought Police might start taking an interest?

Good luck, Robo, with your efforts to get the 'J up to spec...

Hooker it would appear that like so many before you............you talk utter and complete bo@@ocks. Bearing in mind I am now, sad tosser I know, sat quoting DIRECT from the 11d

Whilst not sure of the answer how heavy is a 4 ton truck? The axle limitation on a biggun is just under 3 tons fwd of tdr 10 and aft of tdr 27 whilst on a shorty it's just under 3 tons fwd of tdr 5 and aft of tdr 22. So as long as said trucks weigh as advertised why will both not go in?

The vibration problem on both types mean you lose just over 20 seats, sounds a lot but when was the last time you ever saw more than 40 to 50 poor bas@@@ds down the back of a Mk1? However unlike the K we can fit 6 pallets to a shorty and still get down around 20 seats. How many seat available to a Mk1 in 17F with only 5 pallets.....................

The winch is here! nuff said.


Lids.....I assume you sit sideways or are one of LIMA ECHO's cohorts. Because the envy in your meanderings pours as smoothly as the ice cold Peroni, purchased 2 days ago in Goose Bay en route "Rosy Roads" that I am sat hear sipping. One of the best things Mr Lockheed did was to remove the seating for the white noise and replace it with automation, which has a far more pleasant twang, is eminantly more reliable and, unlike Pang and the like, features a hush button!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Interesting thread this one.

Does anyone in the Albert fleet actually like anybody else.

Captains hate Co's.

Pilots hate everyone.

Loadies hate navs.

K's hate J's.

Air Eng's don't seem to post?!

Surely - you end up on a 5 man crew, you get on with the job. You end up on a 3-man crew , you get on with the job. Is ill feeling towards fellow crew really that bitter? Do you guys do CRM? Doesn't appear so in this (and some other) threads.

The kipper and tanker fleets don't bleat on like this.

Blah!
 

What a lot of willie waggling there is going on! I haven't seen so much antipathy since Admin Guru last reared his ugly head...

How many of you J guys slagged off the J right up to the point where you got posted to them...?:D Just a thought.

Guys, guys, guys (sigh)!

Beags, CK and others are right! Please can Herc operators stop being so f-ing negative about everything/anything/eachother on this site. The tone of the posts are giving the impression that we are a bunch of whingers - which we are not - we are just professional perfectionists! Fortunately, those of us who know the truth, know that both 'species' of Albert have done some seriously daft flying in the name of HMQ over the past 9 months and deserve a damn sight more credit than we have got so far(weeing in dark suit analogy!!) - but as truckies we are very unsexy (only in a military sense, of course).
I am biased aginst the K as we have done more, for longer but the J guys have also made the same giant leap in the dark as we did. Furthermore, when things were really 'hot' the K crews owe a big thanks to a load of J guys who came out as OpsOs. The ones I worked with were bl**dy good and I hope they learnt from our mistakes. While the J still has a very long way to go (at least it has time its side), and the K is on its last legs (but will be around for longer than most think), neither bunch of of people deserve to go to war while being sniped at from those at home who don't know (as some obviously don't)!

We should all have the 'noddle' to:

a. Stop undermining the morale of others.

b. Stop whining about each others toys (lets just face it - we are both jealous - Ks cos the J gets all the press, money and shiney new things - and J cos they can't fly their new ac at LL/drop things yet).

c. Refrain from mentioning core capabilities on a public thread (tho' its hardly rocket science).

d. Be big enough to recognise that we can learn things from eachother.

d. Remember that we are all on the same side and should work together to get the job done (a la Bob the Builder)!

Roll on mixed formations!

Here endeth the lesson.

( J Guys - Please don't let the J det don't come home with a 'Its All Over' razzamatazz fanfare/attitude while the K is still flogging the driveways - its not even half-time yet!)

Phew!

Well said flipster. Lets all leave it at that eh?

Er.....um...... of course I meant to say that I am biased 'IN FAVOUR OF the K'........! (B*gger). Typing never was my strong point!!!!!

We know that, at least you didn't send it to the world....bu**er!

WW

Flipster
Me thinks there will fanfare and 'J' back slapping...indeed, verily, my eyes have witnessed the carping of the leader and the printing of the news RAF!!

PS Atleast the Boeing Body Bags are finally coming home.

I'll get me coat!

Excerpt from a note in the C130J groundcrew office, Thumrait

Hot Climatic Conditions

8. Do not power up aircraft without cooling trolley operating, if cooling trolley is u/s......


Just an observation

mmm.. Lots of NATO airlift types at a secret base mit bent runway today. I take it that they have all come to see the fab. J model in active service. (ie sitting on the pans rusting away!)
Is there some meet on I may have missed??

European Tactical Airlfit Meet (ETAM), annual competition similar to Rodeo and Bullseye with European nations competing in low-level nav, airdrop, spot landing, shooting and loading competitions. More info here. Shame the image links don't work!http://www.lyneham.raf.mod.uk/etam/etam2.htm

WW

Surely that’s ‘shouting and loading’……

I think that the last few weeks is proof enough that the J is not only a Strat ac but an outstanding Tac ac also. Early indications are that nothing else in the RAF fixed wing inventory comes anywhere near to the capabilities of the C-130J. I wasn't convinced at first but now I've seen it in action, the J and the 3 crew that operate it, are a bit special.

C-130J TAC
 

GoodMick,

Good to see a recent reply on this thread, as the ac comes on speed the jurrasics have gone quiet. As you say, the J is exceeding all expectations, including those held by enthusiasts. Important clearances are still being delayed by QQs report writing and project management ability.

I do not know what the problem is with hot weather ops is (as mentioned above). I know people that operated the J at China Lake in the summer (100+F in the shade) with just the APU, that is no cooling trolley/ext pwr. The J had no probs.

Out of curiosity, what precisely, is the J so good at that a C17 (if it were allowed to) couldnt do? The yanks seem fairly certain of its capabilities.

BB

Don't believe all the hype about the C-17. A very capable aircraft that is excellent at most things but there are still problems with it in the airdrop role, some of which should be fixed others which may not be. Ther is still a role for the C-130/A-400 type ac, I notice the Americans, despite buying more C-17s, are not planning to retire the C-130??

Brown Bottle

I suppose the J is better at filling less of a Hind's gun sight.

BB,

Have put Albert into a few strips that would have taken a lot of work with a chainsaw before you could get a C-17 in besides which a Herk can do a bit of strimming itself if needs be!.

Satisfy my curiosity, providing it's not a Shtum type subject. Do you guys use ATO at all these days? Many moons ago when the 130s were two-tone brown and had perspex domes (that will tell you how many moons) we tried to get the powers that be to buy some bottles from the USAF, but nobody was interested.

Sorry to repeat my question guys, but I guess my last post was the last on the last page and the thread slid into obscurity!

I'd have started a new thread but it didn't seem worth it. So, can anyone tell me if you or the powers that be (PTB) have ever condidered using ATO for TAC missions. Does the J have the 'hooks' to take the bottles?

Maybe it's just not a considered requirement, and of course Boscombe would have to have one for a year to play with!
However, it can sure get you off the ground quickly. As I said in my earlier post, we asked for them in prehistoric days but were met by a deafening silence.

As I understand it, there aren't the mounting brackets on the J and given that there was certainly no higher level support for using them on the K, I doubt that any mod would be approved barring a major capability gap being identified and needing plugging urgently - similar in scale and urgency to the prompt that resulted in Herc tankers, I imagine.

Thanks opso. I'll go along with the no requirement envisaged

Just heard that the C130J has completed a successful airdrop of 90 troops (Sim 45), Wedge and door bundles. Surely this can't be true, its only a strat aircraft...!! Two pilots will never cope....

Red Flag how can you?

...no good can ever come from spreading this kind of ridiculous fantasy! :eek:

I seem to remember hearing some loadies talking about some sort of C of G issue with dropping above 64?? anyone clarify?

:confused:

I find the continual C130J vs C130K backstabbing somewhat sad. I have flown K and J aircraft tactically and at the current state of development, each has its own distinct advantages and disadvantages. Most importantly, both models are capable of conducting the tactical mission effectively.

When it comes to provision of military capability, the C130 is a tactical transport aircraft and both J and K models can carry roughly the same mass and size of cargo roughly the same distance in about the same time. As we are in an expeditionary air force and the effective provision of this capability is fairly critical, it would be nice to get a warm feeling that more energy is being expended working towards providing a coherent AT capability using both platforms and using the relative merits of each platform to complement each other.

Unfortunately, I guess that the v senior wheels who allegedly read what is written here get the impression that Lyneham is full of sad, inwards-looking back-stabbers who would rather bitch about each other than contribute towards the Main Effort.

I apologise in advance to those on both sides of the debate who are not small-minded and who are interested in moving forward.

bp.com

Providing coherent AT capability? It's the job.

Working together? Vital.

Not getting the odd prod in when the (very vocal) critics are proved wrong? Impossible!! :p

Redflag: Are there any online piccy's of the drop?

PAF

RedFlag,

thats excellent news, good to see the J coming online as a tactical aircraft so effectively. I wonder when the last time a sim45 was dropped by a Brit Herc - must have been some 10 years ago?? Was the sim 45 PW with DB dropped in South Africa?

PAF
Not sure about the piccies thing, I'll see what I can get hold of...

GM
South Africa it certainly was....

PAF,

there are no C of G issues when dropping more than 64 troops, in fact there are no C of G issues below 64 either (well, none more than usual on a PW mission).

I think that this is a great step forward....
I can stay at home this christmas/new year and let the now highly proven and more capable chaps northside go eastbound in the event of a callout!

Now, how does one obtain oceanic clearance again?........:D

Just as some common sense was becoming the norm we have white noise breaking through again:p

Some things I don't miss :D


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

....hmmm, ABIW, there speaks the most frustrated of frustrated pilots.

Please, please sir, may I sit on your flight deck and push some of your switches and play with your knob..

It's lonely down the back here, I've only got myself to play with......

I don't fly with loadies, engs or AEOs, but I don't bleat on and on and on and on and on and on about them. I like to think that they all get on with the job as professionally as the navs I fly with.

How about a 2003 New Year resolution?!

Interesting stories bouncing around some crew rooms about the Lyneham dodgy video club....allegedly. I have no doubt that all your navigator chums are just breathing a sigh of relief it wasn't one of them!