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-   -   Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/578425-wg-cdr-arthur-gill-obe-dfc.html)

NigG 5th Jun 2016 19:27

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...and-1956-8.jpg

Arthur's last flying job was at RAF Aldergrove, Northern Ireland, in 1956-8. As CO of 23 Maintenance Unit, he test-flew an impressive assortment of aircraft, including the Javelin, Swift, Hunter and Canberra. One of the many piston-engine aircraft was the Shackleton. He had a couple of little 'asides' about flying it.

In his log books, assessments of his flying ability were invariably either 'Above the average' or 'Exceptional'. On his first attempt at landing the Shackleton, the Wing Commander Flying was watching, with a beady eye, from the Control Tower. Instead of making a normal, long and gentle approach, Arthur came in to land after an unusually low-level tight turn. Afterwards, the WCF observed: ‘That was a frightening split-arse turn… but a beautiful touch-down!’ ('Spilt-arse', I guess, is RAF slang?.. although the physiological implications imply Formula One?)

On one occasion, the technical staff needed a special wrench to remove the airscrews from a Washington. One of the US bases in England had one available, so he took a Shackleton over the Irish Sea to pick it up. Before he left he offered any airmen who were about to go on leave, a lift in the aeroplane as an alternative to making the long sea-ferry crossing. When he and his crew arrived at the aircraft he found, to his surprise, a small crowd of airmen and women, together with their baggage, waiting to climb on board. This, of course, was a maritime patrol not a passenger airplane. Quite how they all got in was never established, but on arrival, Arthur called ahead to the American airbase to arrange transport for his human cargo. The Americans laid on a bus and the contorted mass was, no doubt, much relieved to get to the railway station!

savimosh01 5th Jun 2016 19:52

Fascinating Thread
 
I've just read the entire thread about Arthur Gill. I'm fascinated by your father's story, Nigel. Thank you so much for sharing it in such detail along with some of his collection of photographs, which are absolutely outstanding!

I find this quote from Peter C Smith's "Jungle Dive Bombers at War" quite moving:

"Number 84 Squadron was scheduled to convert to Mosquitos but Gill's own last flight in the Vengeance took place on 25 September 1944. He was posted home and flew FB981 from Samungli, Quetta, to Lahore, escorted for part of the way by a flight of Vengeances from the unit which he had first preserved, then led so well."

NigG 5th Jun 2016 20:21


Originally Posted by savimosh01 (Post 9399695)
I find this quote from Peter C Smith's "Jungle Dive Bombers at War" quite moving:

Savimosh

Oh thanks for that quotation, Sara... I wasn't aware Peter Smith wrote that. :) Actually the quote that really got to me was one written by Arthur's adjutant, Flt Lt Brian Lilly, and published in the 84 Squadron magazine after Arthur had left:

[Having known him for two years] I am not ashamed to confess that I had a lump in my throat when I watched him leave us for the last time. That day the Squadron lost a CO who perhaps had exerted a greater influence over its history than any of his predecessors. When he took over… he found himself in command of 132 men – all that remained of the disastrous adventure in the Far East – without aircraft, without equipment and without hope. His first objective was to prevent the squadron being disbanded… Having succeeded, he set himself the task of rebuilding 84 to its former levels of prestige and efficiency… despite many early difficulties and disappointments…

I had the opportunity to observe Arthur Gill at very close quarters. I saw an excellent pilot, a good leader and an able administrator, but the qualities which… harnessed my admiration, respect and loyalty, was his unselfish and unsparing interest in every man serving under his command. Few indeed realised the debt which members of the squadron owed to him. He rarely gave an order. His personal example was sufficient to invest a request with a greater authority. He praised his subordinates in the hour of success and in less happy times readily accepted responsibility. He was one of the most considerate men I have ever known. Perhaps it was a fault that made him do so many trivial jobs instead of insisting on others doing more for him. Despite the enormous amount of work that he did, he never refused to listen nor shirked an issue.

As I write I learn that that he has been awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. I know every man in the Squadron will join me in congratulations and best wishes that the future will hold more glittering prizes than the command of this Squadron – prizes that we know he so richly deserves.’

As well as being quite an accolade, this gives some insight into Arthur's character, and the loyalty he inspired during that time. As for 'more glittering prizes', I don't think they really came... commanding 84 Sqn was his most gratifying appointment in the RAF.

savimosh01 5th Jun 2016 20:40

Bravo
 
Flt Lt Lilly's assessment of your father's character, both professionally and personally, is a very special gift. Thank you for sharing, Nigel.

NigG 7th Jun 2016 20:38

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...ht-aged-16.jpg
The first flight

Learning to fly in the RAF, 1937-8

Arthur’s first flight was as a sixteen-year-old, in 1932. His aunt paid for him to take a joy-ride in an Avro Cadet that took up holiday-makers, from a field behind Margate beach. It was a biplane with an open cockpit… with the noise, the slipstream and the view, it must have been enthralling! A later flight in Gypsy Moth sealed it… he wanted to learn how to fly. But with a meagre salary from his job as a fabric salesroom assistant, there was no way he could afford the cost. He turned to the (part-time) Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but this came to nothing; the RAuxAF was an exclusive organisation and its pilots tended to be rich playboys drawn from Society’s elite.

However by 1936 there were rumblings of another war with Germany. The Government began a civilian-run scheme to train pilots, called the RAF Volunteer Reserve. It was a chance for civilians who lived within reach of an appropriate aerodrome, to learn to fly on weekends and during their holidays. The invitation to apply was open to all, irrespective of their background. Having passed the selection process, Arthur attended evening classes in airmanship, navigation, armaments and aircraft servicing. After which, he was assigned to Hanworth’s London Air Park, a grass airfield, in 1937. He joined the first intake of 32 pupils at No. 5 Elementary and Reserve Flying Training School. It was equipped with Blackburn B2s (similar to the Gypsy Moth) and the instructors were all ex-short service RAF pilots.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...fly-raf-vr.jpg

The most memorable instructor was F/O Louis Rowley, who had been the top pilot at Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus. Rowley could pick-up a handkerchief with a hook on his wing tip. On one occasion, Rowley took over control as they took-off, turned the aircraft on its side and shot through the narrow gap between two trees on the side of the airfield. There was good advice from him too. Rowley told him: ‘I wish you wouldn’t land so close to the boundary hedge when you come in to land… I sit here with my arse squeezed tight, urging you on! It’s much better to hit the far fence at taxiing speed than it is to hit the near hedge at flying speed!’ Arthur never forgot his words.

Soon after Arthur made his first solo flight, he was told to fly circuits of the airfield. Disobeying instructions he tried to get high enough to visit the clouds. The next moment he had lost his bearings… he was lost. Flying on, looking for an airfield, his fuel gauge was getting low… the B2 carried just an hour’s worth of fuel in its top wing tank. Then he saw an airfield, put down and asked at the duty pilot’s hut where he was. He was at Farnborough… miles from Hanworth. The duty pilot telephoned Hanworth and was told not to let Arthur take-off! Rowley and a colleague arrived in another aircraft and flew him back. He got a reprimand for not doing as he was told: to stay in sight of the airfield!

A later forced landing occurred when flying aerobatics. The engine cut-out at the top of a loop, either because of fuel-starvation, or because Arthur had lost too much speed. He rolled out of the loop, pushed the nose down to gain speed and landed in a field of barley. He had no brakes or chocks in front of the wheels, so to restart, he swung the propeller then had to dash around the wing to climb-in, as the aircraft started to move forward by itself. On landing back at Hanworth, a mechanic asked him why barley stalks were caught in the undercarriage. Happily he didn’t report him.

Several student pilots lost their lives. One was an eighteen-year-old who was waiting to take-off. An RAF pilot landed on top of him, having failed to make the usual curving descent to check if it was clear. Both died in the inferno. The inquiry, that followed, recommended that some form of ground control be introduced to over-see landing and take-off.

After passing elementary flying (after 6.5 hours), he progressed on to the larger and more powerful Hart and Audax, where training included gunnery, bombing, photography and navigation exercises. They were delightful planes to fly. However, Arthur was taken by surprise, one beautiful day, having climbed to 21,000’. He didn’t realise that oxygen had to be used at that height. He went very dizzy and vague. He quickly lost height and soon recovered his senses, yet another lesson-learned!

His cousin recounted how one Sunday there was an aircraft circling their house, in Berkhamsted, and his mother wondered if it could be Arthur. A short while later, Arthur and a colleague, both in flying overalls, stepped through the garden gate. A quick cup of tea and then they all walked up to the common, helped to turn the aircraft, after which Arthur took-off, narrowly missing the golfers! [To be continued]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...-fly-audax.jpg
Beside the Hawker Audax

Danny42C 7th Jun 2016 22:09

The Good Old Days.
 
NigG (#125),


...'It’s much better to hit the far fence at taxiing speed than it is to hit the near hedge at flying speed!’...
Another popular version of this good advice; "A low speed crash in the overshoot is preferable to a high-speed crash in the undershoot !"

... He turned to the (part-time) Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but this came to nothing; the RAuxAF was an exclusive organisation and its pilots tended to be rich playboys drawn from Society’s elite...
At Woodvale, 611 (West Lancs) R.Aux.A.F. (Adj) turned me down in 1946 as they were "Full up, old boy", but I had a sneaking suspicion that the same prejudice may have been at work... Like him, the Volunteer Reserve were less fussy and took me in !

...After passing elementary flying (after 6.5 hours)...
Remarkable ! (the wartime average was around 8 hours).

... Arthur was taken by surprise, one beautiful day, having climbed to 21,000’. He didn’t realise that oxygen had to be used at that height. He went very dizzy and vague. He quickly lost height and soon recovered his senses, yet another lesson-learned!...
Should've been told. Luckily he realised the symptoms in time, others did not. Its onset can be quite insidious, as I know from my own experience in the demonstration they gave us (ie on us)in a decompression chamber at OTU. Don't suppose they dare do such a thing now (H&S and all that).

Ah, those halcyon days before the war, when the RAF was "The Best Flying Club in England" !

Danny.

NigG 8th Jun 2016 21:16

Danny

I would have thought 611 RAuxAF would have been chockablock with applicants postwar... so many pilots wanting to keep their hand in. Can't conceive of anyone turning you down if he could avoid it, Danny! I reckon the Adjutant would have been kicking himself after you left... 'Damn... that's a pity... good sort there!'

Yes, Arthur was quite proud of his going solo after 6.5 hours. One of the instructors said he was bit of a natural. Lucky him... as you'll know very well, lots of people really had to struggle... some getting the hang of flying at the last moment... others not, to their great regret.

Halcyon days... definitely seems like it to me. I think Arthur had a great time getting his Wings. If you visit Hanworth today (yes the same Hanworth that's now infamous for it riots some years ago), there's nothing left of the airfield... it's all been turned into a public recreational area, with games fields and dog-walkers. The one thing that survives, apparently, is Hanworth house, now fenced-off and sealed by the Council. This was a hotel in Arthur's day, right next to their hanger and the nearby aero-club. It was effectively their Mess. He said they had many riotous parties there... men only, of course (no women in the RAF then)... and all the instructors lost their trousers at some point. Good days, for sure... but to be followed by tough ones. Arthur was pretty sure he was the lone survivor, after the war, of the 31 students who trained with him. Ordinary guys... extraordinary sacrifice.

Wander00 9th Jun 2016 08:34

I thought the riots were in Handsworth, not Hanworth

Danny42C 9th Jun 2016 16:15

NigG,

...yes the same Hanworth that's now infamous for its riots some years ago...
Handsworth, of course (as Wander00 has gently corrected). Another point of similarity between Arthur (if I may be permitted to use your Father's Christian name) and myself:
In January and February of 1942, I did my Advanced School (and got my USAAC Wings) at Selma Field in Alabama. Then few people ouside the US had ever heard (or ever would hear) about the place, which was well and truly "out in the sticks".

In 1965 its name spread worldwide, on account of the race riots and the Selma Marches.

Danny.

NigG 9th Jun 2016 20:18

Danny

Reference you joining the Volunteer Reserve post-war, can you clarify this, Danny? My understanding is that all new RAF pilots (and other aircrew) trained during wartime were enrolled in the RAF(VR), and wore VR lapel badges. But it sounds like you weren't. Also, why was the RAF(VR) still enrolling in 1946.. when, presumably, you had been demobbed, and the RAF was being down-sized?

Wander00

Oops!... yes, you are right... well spotted. :) The riots were in Handsworth, West Midlands, not Hanworth, London Borough of Hounslow. Apologies to the people of Hanworth. Commiserations with the people of Handsworth. :rolleyes:

NigG 9th Jun 2016 20:33


Originally Posted by Danny42C (Post 9403677)
NigG,

Another point of similarity between Arthur (if I may be permitted to use your Father's Christian name) and myself:

Ah!... you're from the polite and respectful generation, Danny! While the new generation is the 'familiar' one! 'All right, mate?'!! :) I think your way is nicer! But doubt that it will ever come back... unless there's another world war, the younger generation gets drafted, and becomes re-invested with some sense of hierarchy!

(Off-topic, I know.)

Danny42C 9th Jun 2016 22:06

NigG (#130),

...Can you clarify this, Danny? My understanding is that all new RAF pilots (and other aircrew) trained during wartime were enrolled in the RAF(VR), and wore VR lapel badges. But it sounds like you weren't. Also, why was the RAF(VR) still enrolling in 1946.. when, presumably, you had been demobbed, and the RAF was being down-sized?...
I was enlisted (in 1940), and commissioned (in 1943), into the RAFVR. I at first had the "VR" on my shoulder as an airman, and if commissioned in the early years of the war, would have had the "VR" on my lapels. Your father would have had the same. In the same way, embodied prewar Auxiliaries wore an "A" on lapel or shoulder, which distinguished us from prewar regulars.

But then the great mass of conscripts were coming in (although aircrew were all volunteers from among them), and the RAF saw advantage in enlisting/commissioning everyone into the RAFVR, although they were not now in fact strictly "volunteers". It meant that you could get rid of them without difficulty "on the cessation of hostilities".

The "VR" on lapels now served no purpose, and was discarded. I am not sure about the OR's shoulder tag - I was a long way away, with other things to worry about at the time - (but the Auxiliaries kept their "A"s, which caused a good deal of heartache among the "genuine" volunteers). I don't think the VR was reformed until 1947 (for the RAF will always need Reserves), although most had been ruthlessly "released" at the war's end (the 1949 RAF was one-tenth the size of the 1946 one). The ones who were chosen to stay mostly were put on Short-Service Commissions (a select few were awarded Permanent Commissions).

It's complicated, I know, but that's how it was.

Thank you for the compliment !

Danny.

NigG 10th Jun 2016 08:21

Danny

Ah yes. I checked Wikipedia, subsequent to writing my post, and noticed the RAFVR was re-established post-war. (Must remember... 'check spelling... check grammar... check Wikipedia'!). Thanks for that. :) Also noticed on Wiki that the 'VR' lapel badges were discontinued because they were deemed to be divisive. The VRs tending to be looked down on by the Regulars and Auxiliaries... which was pretty surprising, since half of Bomber Command aircrew were VRs by the end of 1941, and c.95% by the end of the war.

Wander00 10th Jun 2016 08:34

It was said unkindly of a former Chief Inspector of Constabulary that he was the only police officer who in his career was defeated at two riots, Handsworth and Garden House Hotel Cambridge (the riot against the regime of the Greek "Colonels")

Danny42C 10th Jun 2016 16:25

NigG (#133),

... Also noticed on Wiki that the 'VR' lapel badges were discontinued because they were deemed to be divisive...
A bit odd - seeing that the badges were introduced for exactly that purpose: to distinguish the Volunteer Reservists and the Auxiliaries from the regulars who had been serving on the outbreak of war. Of course they were "divisive" - they were intended to "divide" !

.... The VRs tending to be looked down on by the Regulars and Auxiliaries... which was pretty surprising...
Don't remember anything like that. When everybody was a VR, there was no point in it ("when everybody's somebody, nobody's anybody"). The dwindling number of regulars, as a proportion of the increasing number of conscripts, made the "old sweats" a rarity, but there was no reason for them to consider themselves (or anyone else to consider them) superior on that account.
The Auxiliaries (who were lucky to keep their "A"s) might have considered themselves "a cut above the rest", but this may have been just an impression gained from the envy of the real Volunteers when their "VR"s were taken away.

In a just world, it would have been perfectly simple to recruit all who volunteered before they were called up into the Volunteer Reserve, and give them "VR"s (AFAIK, there was no recruitment into the Auxiliaries after war began). and simply enlist the rest into the "RAF" and have done with it. Did the Army and Navy agonise in this way ? I think not. But "just", the World ain't.

Danny.

PS: Gentlemen, today is the 10th !

MPN11 11th Jun 2016 08:44

Regular/Volunteer ... Unlike the RAF and RN, the Army had no such visible distinction between the categories. According to my late father [pre-War TA] there was much surprise later in the War from the Regulars, when people such as he started wearing their Territorial Decoration [with War Service counting double time!] and they discovered how many of their 'leaders' were formerly TA.

NigG 11th Jun 2016 09:51

Danny and MPN11

The issue of Regulars and Auxiliaries looking down on Volunteer Reservists (and the Regular Army looking down on the TA) perhaps had it's origins in peacetime attitudes. The VRs and TA in peacetime were (are) part-timers. Inevitably, their level of proficiency would be inferior. The Auxiliaries were also part-time in the pre-war era, but might have assumed superiority over the VR 'newboys'. Arthur told me that VRs were looked down on, and the Wiki article corroborates that. Of course, as you say Danny, once war started everyone was full-time and fully trained, so the continuation of any prejudice seems unreasonable. But, glad to hear you never had any sense of being looked down on. Suggests that it may have happened in some units and not in others.

Danny42C 11th Jun 2016 20:50

NigG (#137),

Thanks for the PM !

...The VRs and TA in peacetime were (are) part-timers. Inevitably, their level of proficiency would be inferior. The Auxiliaries were also part-time in the pre-war era...
So were the Auxiliaries in the post-war years. But their 20 Squadrons formed one-third of the RAF's fighter strength in the Cold War ('50s) years. (Wiki)

They were reckoned to be as efficient and as well trained as the Regular Squadrons. They flew the same aircraft (Meteor and Vampire), and with one Interception sortie on Saturday afternoons, and two on Sundays, would be not far behind the hours put in by the Regulars. Or so I was told...

They were disbanded in '57, when the Hunters and Swifts were coming it. We couldn't afford to kit them out with Hunters.....(the old, old story).

Danny.

NigG 12th Jun 2016 14:43

Danny I bet there were some very long faces when the RAuxAF learned they were to be disbanded. The loss of a wonderful opportunity to fly (and the rest). Perhaps it was inevitable too. Though much smaller, the fighting effectiveness of the modern RAF must significantly exceed that of the 1950s' one. Technology trumps manpower (and where will it end?) :ugh:

Learning to fly

Returning to some of Arthur's experiences, when he was learning to fly in 1937-9, as a member of the (part-time) RAF Volunteer Reserve... another of his memories was of 1938. He wrote:

My next forced landing was when I flying in a formation of four 'Harts'. The leader, another student-pilot, led us into thick cloud and poor visibility. When I came out of the cloud, the other three aircraft had disappeared! I looked around for a while but didn't recognise where I was, and there were no useful landmarks to enable me to locate myself on the map. So I chose a field and landed, avoiding some high trees and a power-line that ran to a farmhouse. At the far end was a herd of cows. I taxied over to some barns and asked a farm labourer where I was. 'You be at Tring, Sir', said he. I thanked him and said I hoped the cows wouldn't be producing curdled milk. 'They be alright, Sir', with a broad grin. I took off and found my way back to Hanworth. The other three were already back and said they had concluded I must have disappeared to 'shoot-up' some girlfriend's house!

That year, I watched the start of the 'King's Cup Race' whose course was from Hanworth to the Isle of Man.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...id-7420068.jpg

[A 'Sparrowhawk', one of the entrants to the King's Cup]

The engine of one of the small aircraft failed just as it was passing over a row of houses that lined the east side of the airfield. Instead of pushing his nose down very quickly to maintain speed, then glide down to land in the field ahead, the pilot tried to turn-back to the airfield to land. With the nose pointing upwards and the rapid loss of flying speed, the aircraft stalled and then spun into one of the houses below. He was killed, of course, but so too was a woman, lying in her bed.


[to be continued]

MPN11 12th Jun 2016 16:47

The Curse of Turnback strikes again. I recall being cautioned against trying that on my PPL ... land straight ahead, into wind (assuming there's a suitable spot, of course).

Danny42C 12th Jun 2016 19:35

Them were the Days !
 
NigG (#139),

...Though much smaller, the fighting effectiveness of the modern RAF must significantly exceed that of the 1950s' one...
True "up to a point, Lord Copper". But the RAF of (say) '58 was not all that different from that of '55. The threat then was still the Warsaw Pact bomber. Wiki tells us:

...The first strategic-missile unit became operational on 9 February 1959 at Plesetsk in north-west Russia...
The answer as ever (ignoring MAD) was still the fighter, and the Hunter was no more than an updated Meteor/Vampire. Agreed, its 'fighting effectiveness' was superior- but one chap can still only be at one place at one time. Numbers still count ! Dumping one-third of your fighting strength does not seem a good idea. Admittedly, in '57 the core of their ex-war people would be in their mid-thirties, but experienced, fully trained, and in full flying practice. And by then there would have been a growing proportion of NS pilots (608 got its first ones in '54) and in the event or likelihood of war, the ones who'd finished their NS would have been pulled back in one way or another.

No, I see "the dead hand of the Treasury" at work here. Nothing changes

...So I chose a field and landed, avoiding some high trees and a power-line that ran to a farmhouse. At the far end was a herd of cows. I taxied over to some barns and asked a farm labourer where I was. 'You be at Tring, Sir', said he. I thanked him and said I hoped the cows wouldn't be producing curdled milk. 'They be alright, Sir', with a broad grin. I took off and found my way back to Hanworth...
We're in another world, aren't we ? I could almost smell the cows. It's in that last, warm summer of '38. What would today's farmer's reaction be ? Reach for his solicitor and sue the MOD for (think of a number) still-born calves !

...the pilot tried to turn-back to the airfield to land...
They drummed into me in the States: "you cain't use a field you've left behind !"

Nice pics - thanks !

Danny.

NigG 14th Jun 2016 15:05

Danny and MPN11

That must be a classic pilot's nightmare: catastrophically losing flying speed on take-off. One's first, incorrect, instinct must be to keep the nose up, and the second one to head back to the airfield and thus to 'safety'. A friend of mine is a glider pilot. One of his instructor colleagues was giving a paying visitor a joyride. On taking-off, the towline, drawing them up into the air, broke. This pilot then forgot standard procedure ('stick your nose down and land ahead of you') and turned back for the landing ground. They stalled and a wing hit the ground, thus cartwheeling them and causing considerable damage to the aircraft. I think everyone rushed to reassure the poor passenger and made light of it: 'Haha!... bit of a bumpy landing!'. There was some expectation that the pilot would lose his instructor qualification, but apparently, he got away with it.

Another recent example comes to mind, where 'impulse' over-rode 'knowledge and training'. This was the Air France Airbus, Flight 447, that came down in 2009, crashing into the Atlantic on its way back to Paris from Rio de Janeiro. There's been a couple of TV programmes about it. As I recall, they had zero visibility, at night, in poor weather conditions. The auto-pilot had handed control back to the aircrew, as the sensors gauging airspeed etc, had frozen-up. The Junior Pilot had control of the aircraft and kept the nose up despite the aircraft continuing to lose height. The stall alarm went off, but the Captain, having just returned from the bunk-bed, didn't realise the nose was being held high by the Junior pilot. By the time he worked out what on earth was going on, they were too low to put the nose down and thus accelerate and regain flying speed. It seems that the Junior Pilot's intuition was that they were losing height, so the aircraft had to be pointed upwards. All the while, the aircraft was in a stall attitude, falling, nose high, out of the sky. One of the conclusions of the experts was that airline pilots were being trained to fly sophisticated computerised aircraft, but fundamental, hands-on, piloting skills were being neglected.

This is also an example of where advances in automation have the effect of de-skilling humans. Likewise, the modern-age mountain walker who finds himself lost and utterly in a pickle when the batteries of his GPS run flat. :ugh:

MPN11 14th Jun 2016 18:37

I think that's why "Stalling" is/was about the first exercise after "Effects of Controls" ... or at least recognising when it was about to happen.

Danny42C 15th Jun 2016 16:02

Post Mortem.
 
NigG (#142),

...That must be a classic pilot's nightmare: catastrophically losing flying speed on take-off. One's first, incorrect, instinct must be to keep the nose up, and the second one to head back to the airfield and thus to 'safety'...
Worse than "losing" flying speed by misfortune" is losing it by your own stupid fault. If you like, I will send you a copy of "My Crash" file by the PPRuNe e-mail method. You do not need to reply in that way, for that will involve disclosing your email address to me, and I do not need a reply, anyway. I do this because my PM inbox keeps hitting the 100% stop, and there is already a group of three Parts of the story on the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread.

...Another recent example comes to mind, where 'impulse' over-rode 'knowledge and training'. This was the Air France Airbus, Flight 447, that came down in 2009, crashing into the Atlantic on its way back to Paris from Rio de Janeiro....
Now the take I shall give you on this is no more than that to be expected from any well-informed layman. I never flew on the civil side, and for the greater part of my 10 years as an Air Force pilot, I was a simple Stick-Rudder-Throttle man, never had anything to do with automatics, and I flew from A to B by means of watch, map and compass until almost the end of my time. So with that caveat, here goes:

This case (AF447) has become a classic of the dangers of the excessive reliance on automation and computerisation of all the control and navigation systems of an airliner which is a feature of air traffic today. The sad fact is that (to take the simplest example) automatic pilots (which have been known since the thirties) can fly a plane, and hold height and heading, as well as (if not better than) the best of human pilots. But the human gets tired, the autopilots do not. And the more accurately (and smoothly !) an aircraft is flown to its plotted route, the less fuel it will need to reach its destination. Fuel is the major item in operating costs, the accountants rule supreme. Captains may be disciplined by their Companies for "manually" flying their aircraft (or permitting their First Officers to do so).

Once Navigators had an honoured place on the Flight Deck. Not any more - they are long gone, more money saved. Instead, all the "way-points" of the planned route are stored in on-board computers. These are constantly fed with aircraft position (now by GPIs, before that the Inertial Navigation System (don't ask), both independent of anything outside the aircraft. Also input are running details of airspeed, groundspeed, height and much else. The computers determine the correct heading to fly, and when to turn, and instruct the autopilot to do so. They can follow an ILS approach to a landing (ILS came in before the War, it has been the standard world-wide bad-weather approach system ever since). Now Autoland can (at all major airports) finish the job.

The Pilots are relieved of all need to practise their basic flying skills (and actively discouraged from doing so): they have become Systems Managers instead. And, so long as the (very reliable) systems are up and running, that is fine. But......

The "Black Boxes" were recovered (by a miracle of deep-sea salvage), and the whole sorry story came to light. There are many blow-by-blow accounts on Google/Wiki.

I will only add my two cent's worth. IMHO, 300+ people died in an (at first) perfectly flyable aircraft. Apart from the "De Mortuis..." angle, don't blame the pilots. They acted in the way they had been conditioned to act. Any one of the three could have gone back to first principles and flown the aircraft out of trouble. It simply did not occur to them to do so.

So the Companies have had a Damascene conversion and reversed their policies ? Dream on - money talks - we all want cheap fares, don't we - it could happen again at any moment, anywhere.

Now I bow my grey hairs in anticipation of the storm which will descend on me. Put it all down to Senile Decay, I throw myself on the mercy of the Court. What do I know, anyway ?

Danny.

Chris Scott 15th Jun 2016 16:14

Hello Danny42C,

Writing as a retired airline pilot who flew fly-by-wire a/c for the last 14 of a 35-year career (having started on Daks), FWIW I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

(Never imagined this thread would take off quite like it has. Some great stuff on here.)

Chris

Danny42C 15th Jun 2016 17:14

Chris,

Am greatly heartened by your support - thought a load of brickbats would be coming my way ! (might yet). Thanks !

Yes, you never know how a seemingly limited Thread can blossom out, do you ? Thanks are due to the wise Moderators, who let us ramble on a bit at the fringes of the Thread.

This is particularly true of the Prince of PPRune Threads - "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII".

Danny.

MPN11 15th Jun 2016 20:07

Nice post as usual Danny42C ... the AF tragedy was {IMHO] caused not by failing to go back to basics, but not even knowing/recognising what the basics were.


And "hello" Chris Scott ;)

Danny42C 16th Jun 2016 14:48

MPN11,
From the standpoint of this Very Old Hairy, it touches a nerve. The initial fault was a failed ASI, caused by ice in the pitot tubes. You don't need an ASI. I flew my first 60 hrs without one, and felt no pain (I knew no better, and thought all aircraft could be flown like that). AFAIK, the gyro instruments were working normally - so P3 (and P2 and P1) had an (artificial) horizon.

You put the nose on the horizon, and your wings level, and if the engines keep running, the bird will keep flying. Never mind anything else. We used to say "Never mind the Altitude - Fly Attitude !".

P3 vainly tried to chase the misreading altimeter with the results we know. Then (and this fills me with horror), it seems that the two Airbus sidesticks are not mechanically coupled. It was dark. So P2 in the other seat could neither see nor feel what P3 was doing. By the time P1 came in, confusion was total (and possibly the aircraft was already stalled past recovery).

Your:


...[IMHO] caused not by failing to go back to basics, but not even knowing/recognising what the basics were...
I would say rather that they still knew the basics - but they had been "brainwashed" into putting them out of mind.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it. Pity it only works backwards. (We must both settle back into our armchairs now, harrumph, having explained everything to our own complete satisfaction).

Danny.

MPN11 16th Jun 2016 16:03

I, like you, started flying whilst being able to listen to 'the wind in the wires' ... and I still drive with the same audible cues, despite having an all-electric car. I can 'hear' when I'm doing 30 mph without needing to look at the digital speed readout :)

But I accept that the complex and automated Airbus [and other] systems these days must tend to take you down a dark path.

NigG 16th Jun 2016 17:48


Originally Posted by Danny42C (Post 9410686)
The initial fault was a failed ASI, caused by ice in the pitot tubes. You don't need an ASI. I flew my first 60 hrs without one, and felt no pain (I knew no better, and thought all aircraft could be flown like that).... You put the nose on the horizon, and your wings level, and if the engines keep running, the bird will keep flying. Never mind anything else. We used to say "Never mind the Altitude - Fly Attitude !".

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...d-ii-brown.jpg

Your post, and MPN11's, reminded me of Arthur's unpleasant experience of a frozen pitot tube sensor, in January 1955. He was CO of RAF Old Sarum at the time. The trip was a solo flight from Abingdon to Benson and back, in an Airspeed 'Oxford', in order to collect a sofa that had been re-upholstered. [Not sure how easy it is to do that in the modern RAF!] It was a beautiful sunny day and he set-off without checking the weather. All went well until, on the return flight, he ran into dense cloud and snowfall. He couldn't see a thing. This is his entry in his log book:

On returning from Benson, I ran into a blizzard when nearing base. I tried to land at Boscombe Down by G.C.A. but their radar became unserviceable. I made an emergency 'PAN' call and was diverted to Lyneham. My Air Speed Indicator then became iced-up [He recalled he was having to judge whether the aircraft was climbing, descending, or flying level by the sound of the engines] Lyneham then couldn't accept me when the weather 'clamped down' there. I was then re-diverted to Abingdon, where I landed [guided down by radar] a few minutes before this airfield, too, was 'blotted out'.

I sense a few cold beads of sweat on his forehead!

MPN11 16th Jun 2016 18:51

NigG ... 'unpleasant is an understatement! At least ATC finally provided a 'safe and expeditious service' ;)

Of course, it's a different scenario at 36,000 ft in an Airbus in CuNims.

Danny42C 16th Jun 2016 19:55

NigG,

Yes, the wandering winter snowstorm was one of our greatest flying horrors, because they can build up very quickly and unpredictably, and when they cover an airfield, heavy falling snow quickly reduces visibilty to zero and landing is impossible. You have to stand off until it moves off (if you have the fuel) or divert, with no certainty that your diversion will not "go out" with its own storm before you get there. This seems to have happened to your father, and I well imagine that he was mightily relieved to get down in the end.

Before I retired, our excellent AR-1 radars were able to see these things coming down the wind fifty miles out, and if your airfield was in their path, ATC would keep everyone informed of their ETAs.

One of the final tasks of the RAF Oxfords was to act as the 'lead-ins' for the Meteor T7s of the AFSs. It was an enormous jump: the Anson had a top speed of 192mph and a wing loading of 21.5lb/sq ft. The Meteor (figures for F8), 600mph and 49lb/sq ft. (all Wiki). Even the wartime people like myself (who'd handled what passed for fast machinery in our day) had our hands full with the Meteor in the early '50s. The new boys (and the later NS entrants) died like flies. The accident statistics of the Meteor at that time are horrifying (there is/was a Thread on this Forum about it).

It was still in use for this purpose in '54, when 608 got its first NS pilot. I thought it almost criminal. By all means use it at SFTS, but then put them on (say) Mosquitos for a few hrs before the Meteor.

Danny.

NigG 18th Jun 2016 20:32

Danny

I've just made the catastrophic error of writing a wadge of text, then popping back to previous page, only to find the text has disappeared on my return. Humph! :sad:

Anyway... thanks for your many observations above. Always interesting, sometimes fascinating, frequently laugh-out-loud amusing!

Re your 144 above, can you not re-post your 'My accident'? I can't believe it won't bear another airing. You mentioned privately emailing it. Surely better for all to savour! Incidently, anonymity isn't an issue for me... I'm a 'nobody'. But I appreciate that you have to be cautious in that respect. Were your contact details ever to get out, you'd be deluged by authors, writers, journalists, editors, historians. Could be very nasty!

But I'm wondering if you recorded a taped interview with the Imperial War Museum? Years ago, I gave them my father's details and, recently retired, he trekked up to London at their request. His answers on the recording are somewhat terse, so I rather doubt that they got quite what they were hoping for. However, with your 'gift of the gab', you could be a God-send for them! Also, may I observe (as if you didn't know) you ain't gonna be around for ever, sir. I recall you mentioned, somewhere in the 'Brevet' Thread, that you'd written your memoirs. Possibly you're satisfied that these are sufficient and you need leave no further legacy. Anyway... I thought I might be bold and mention it.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066...5-edited-2.jpg

Re your post immediately above, I knew the Vampire was risky to fly... indeed I mentioned my father having to belly-land one (on page 3). But I didn't know the Meteor (photo) was dodgy. (Looks so solid!) Arthur, having converted from piston engine aircraft, thought the jets remarkable for their speed... blasting up to height on take-off. He though they were easier to fly than multi-piston-engine aircraft... less monitoring and tweaking of engines, etc.

Oh, a small observation! You and your Air Force colleagues are much given to jargon and acronyms. I should point out that we haven't all been favoured with a period of service in the Air Force. I follow some of it in your post ... 'ATC' is Air Traffic Control (not Air Training Corps). 'AFS' is Advanced Flying School? 'NS' is definitely National Service. 'SFTS' is Service Flying Training School? Some of the jargon in 'Brevet' is very tricky, elsewhere it's mind-warping! Then again, I concede, recourse to jargon must be both automatic and rather pleasurable. What is the point in learning a foreign language if you never use it?! :)

Danny42C 18th Jun 2016 22:47

Danny's Last Operation (it come t' pieces in me 'and, Mum) !
 
NigG,

...only to find the text has disappeared on my return. Humph!...
I (and many others) have been caught by this malign gremlin which infests PPRuNePad. Clearly an evil intelligence is at work, for he always waits till you have almost finished before doing the dirty on you. Solution: always draft somewhere else (I use NotePad) where it should be safe, and then copy/paste onto PPRuNePad.

But beware: foiled in this way, he has found his way even into NotePad. Therefore, as soon as I've finished a draft on NotePad, I save it to Desktop at once. He hasn't sussed that one out (yet). But no doubt he's working on it !

... can you not re-post your 'My accident'? I can't believe it won't bear another airing...
Well, seeing that it has not previously been Posted on this Thread, and I'm a nice obliging sort of chap, and anyway I never tire of hearing my own voice, will stick it on the end of this.

... recently retired, he trekked up to London at their request...
They'd be on a hiding to nothing with me ! I retired 44 years ago, and can just about get to my own front door.

... I knew the Vampire was risky to fly... indeed I mentioned my father having to belly-land one (on page 3). But I didn't know the Meteor was dodgy...
The Vampire was very nice and reliable (your father was unlucky). And the Meteor was all right too. It was just too much for the poor young men who'd (IMHO) been inadequately prepared for it.

... What on earth is the point in learning a foreign language if you never use it?!...
You're not alone in finding our alphabet soup a bit difficult at times. I, too, have sometimes to ask at on Thread for an explanation. Do not hesitate to do so. Someone will always chip in with the answer.

Danny.



ANNEX 1.

Febuary 24th is a date I'll not forget in a hurry ! - for on this day 72 years ago I came within a whisker of the Pearly Gates. I told my tale here in three separate Posts some 3½ years ago, but as many of our newer readers may not have read the originals, I've now edited and combined them into one story (and added an Epilogue). Even so, it's still much too long for a single Post, so I've split it into three parts. Here's Part I:

On 24th February '44, in the Arakan in Burma. "Stew" Mobsby and I took off on our 53rd sortie, flying No. 3 (wingman on the left of) the leader, Bill Boyd Berry. We were going some way down south (Donbaik ?), and the formation was climbing more slowly than usual, as we had plenty of time to get up to our bombing height. I think we took off from Ramu II, but cannot be sure - there were so many places, we were moving all the time and they all looked the same.

So quite soon after taking off we passed over the battle area (the Second Arakan campaign was reaching its climax) fairly low. Johnny Jap would take a pot at us, of course, but then he had a go every time we came back from a sortie and did no serious damage, although it was not unusual for aircraft to land back with small arms hits. On this occasion, I felt and heard nothing out of the ordinary, and neither did "Stew". Twenty minutes into the climb, I had a look round the instruments. Oil pressure was zero.

Engines don't run long without oil, and I didn't fancy life as a Japanese prisoner. I signalled BBB (drew my hand across my throat, and pointed to the engine - we kept R/T silence), and started back. I warned "Stew" to be ready to bale out; we were at 3,000 ft and could easily manage it. The next few minutes were nail-biting, but then we were back over friendly territory again.

I was thankful, but starting to have doubts. The engine was still running smoothly. What was more, neither oil nor cylinder head temperatures were rising. I began to think that all I had was a dud oil gauge. With every mile my suspicion grew. By the time base was in sight (there was nowhere closer to land), I'd convinced myself. My screen was clear of oil, so the prop can't be throwing it out. "Stew" said we weren't making smoke, so we can't be burning it through the engine. The two temperature needles hadn't shifted. It had to be the oil pressure gauge, and I felt a bit of a fool.

Even so, I might have put it down off a straight-in approach, but these were awkward and difficult in a Vengeance because of the very poor forward view at low speeds. So we normally flew circuits. As there seemed to be no hurry, I did so now. Bad mistake! Downwind, I dropped the wheels and started my checks. The engine seized.

It had shown no sign of distress. Now there was just dead silence and a stationary propeller blade staring at me. The Vengeance was a poor flying machine and no glider at all. It went down like a brick. It was doing just that from a thousand feet - too low to bale out and no time even to think of dumping bombs. I took a last look at the strip, but it would have been suicide to try to get in from where we were with no power.

Nothing for it but crash-land straight ahead. I yelled "Brace" at "Stew", lifted the wheels and cut the main switch, to stop the fuel pumps and isolate the battery to avoid sparks. I can only remember thinking "I must keep 150 on the clock to have any hope of rounding-out at the bottom"... Then my mind goes blank.

A mile or so away was an RAF Repair and Salvage Unit. I would think that most of its trade was in salvage. They did not have to go far to collect mine. As far as they could see, I was making for their clearing, but sank into trees before I got there. I must have rounded-out all right, for the aircraft survived touchdown to go skidding through the open jungle. They told me that the tail unit came off first, then trees removed both wings. So far things may have been fairly tolerable inside, if a bit bumpy, for we were having a ride in a sort of high-speed bulldozer. Then the engine broke out.

Deprived of its battering-ram, the relatively light remaining structure hit something hard, broke apart just aft of the gunner's cockpit, and stopped abruptly in the shape of an inverted "V". The front fuselage and cockpits remained intact, the bombs stayed good as gold and the fuel did not go up. Thank God for the brick-built Vengeance! (anything else would have disintegrated and killed us!)

We'd had a lifetime's entitlement of luck in the last few seconds, but were in no position to appreciate it, both knocked out in the crash. My luck had stretched even further. I'd been wearing my "Ray-Bans" under my helmet, with my goggles pushed up on my head. When we hit the final obstacle, the cable retaining my shoulder harness snapped and I jack-knifed face first into the instrument panel. (The P-40 recently found in the Saraha has the "Needle & Ball" glass smashed. It's dead centre of the panel: it's the only broken instrument glass - (cf 682al's pic on #2709 p. 136) - every picture tells a story).

By rights, the glass lenses should have shattered into my eyes and blinded me. But, as far as we could make out, the goggles had taken the first impact, in the next millisecond the lenses must have jerked out of the frame and away from my eyes. The frame buckled, scooped the bridge off my nose and ploughed into my forehead and left cheek. And that was the total extent of my injuries !

"Stew" had been facing forward, braced head down on his navigation table. He broke a bone in his left wrist and got a bang on the nose, leaving him with an odd disability - he couldn't smell. This was no great loss out there and he got scant sympathy on that account, but it earned him a nice lttle lump sum from the War Pensions people later.

The RSU people ran over to pull us out; watchers at the base had seen us go down and sent the camp ambulance. I came to briefly as they were loading me on a stretcher, and remember the hot sun on my face. I couldn't see as my eyes were full of drying blood. "How's Stew?" - "He's all right". I looked a lot worse than I actually was, and that had an amusing sequel.

I came to fully in a Mobile Field Hospital at Cox's Bazar. They'd had mostly malaria and dysentery cases, and were quite chuffed at getting two proper "battle" casualties. "Stew" got a big cast on his arm and his nose shrank to normal size over the next few weeks. The enthusiastic medics sewed up my face and a surgeon made up a new bridge for my nose out of a patch from my thigh. Kept in place by a "saddle" of dental plastic, this wasn't perfect, but has done very well.

We were looked after quite efficiently by a staff of RAF nursing orderlies, fiercely dragooned by a P.M. RAF Nursing Service Matron for the three (I think) RAF wards. (The Army, of course, had the lion's share of the Field Hospital: it was an Army surgeon who did my job). We must have spent about a month there, then "threw away our crutches" ("Stew's" cast and my nose 'saddle'), and prepared to go off to Calcutta on convalescent leave.

(Part II in a day or so)

Danny42C.


----------------------------------------------------

(Part II)


First task would be to secure our belongings. The ambulance crew had reported back to the Squadron what they'd seen when they'd picked us up, but of course it had taken them some time to reach us and I'd been bleeding like a stuck pig all over everything in the meanwhile. So the tale they told was pretty gruesome; the general opinion was that they'd seen the last of me.

No use my kit going to waste. My DIY bed was a prize legacy, they had a draw for that. The rest was shared out among the others; there was no use trying to send stuff after me, it wasn't worth it and the chances were that it wouldn't reach me if they did. (This was standard procedure - anything personal or of value would, of course, be secured for safe keeping by the Adjutant or Intelligence Officer - we are talking about clothing, bedding and towels etc., which you could quickly and cheaply replace).

Six weeks later the bad penny turned up. A shamefaced procession turned up with various items of my kit: "Sorry about this, old man - didn't think you'd be needing it any more!" And of course I recovered my bed - not that I would need it for long, for all six Vultee Vengeance Squadrons were ordered to cease operations in June '44, and we would shortly be moving out from the Arakan (as it happened, never to return). "Worse things happen at sea !"

That done, we went off to Calcutta for our leave (transport no problem, you could always cadge a ride on one of the many 'Daks' which were continually shuttling Cal-Chittagong-all points- east and back. I will not describe our leave now, as I plan to make a separate Post out of Calcutta; it is worth a Post on its own



-------------------------------------------------------


(Part III)


Back on the squadron, the engineers debated. The engine troubles which had plagued the first Vengeance the year before had mostly been cured, and the most likely explanation for the failure was a lucky shot hitting an oil tank, cooler or line. But in the condition I left the aircraft, it might have been hit by a 3.7 AA shell and look no worse ! They returned an open verdict.

In an earlier Post I have worked out that the Sqdn finally moved to Samungli (Quetta) on 6.8.44, so it stayed on in the Arakan doing nothing much for three monsoon months. Early In that time it must have left whatever 'kutcha' strip it was on and fallen back on a paved strip (I think Chittagong or Dohazari) or they would never have got the aircraft out of the mud to fly away. And both these places were rail points, from which the ground party could move. I have only vague memories of that time, but I flew a couple of times (non-op) in July, and I think I was loaned to 244 Group in Chittagong to do some paperwork, so I wasn't altogether idle.

Once the decision had been taken to stop VV operations, there was absolutely no reason to leave us in the Arakan a day longer. For although there were dozens of 'kutcha' strips, there were relatively few with a paved runway and drainage: these should have been left for the Hurricanes, Beaufighters and Mohawks who could still do useful work even in monsoon conditions. We were just cluttering up the place.

We became entitled to a "Wound Stripe" apiece. This daft and short-lived thing may have been peculiar to India. I never heard of it after I came back. The idea was similar to the American "Purple Heart", at which we poked much fun (it was said that you could get it for being nicked by the camp barber!) But it was entered on our records, and I seem to remember that I had an inch-long gold lace stripe to sew on my khaki tunic sleeve. As we never wore tunics (only bush jackets or shirts), it didn't seem worth bothering with.

"Stew" and I had been amazingly lucky: we both knew we'd live the rest of our lives on borrowed time. It's a pity that no photographs were AFAIK, taken of the wreck - it would have been quite a memento in my logbook. But then, after all, down the years I've had a reminder every time I've looked in a mirror!

(He and I parted soon after this, as I was posted away from Samungli, but were reunited the following year, when he rejoined me as my "Adjutant" in Cannanore. Having come out to India much earlier, he went home earlier. I looked him up once (in Southend) after the war, but then, I'm sorry to say, we lost contact).

Many years later I watched a TV documentary about an oil sheikh's new racecourse complex somewhere in the Gulf. The architect was mentioned. There couldn't be two of that name! He appeared. Incredulous, I looked at this little, bald, fat chap - a far cry from the wiry young man with the Byronic looks I remembered. (Ah, the ravages of time !)

There is a present-day slant on the tale of my crash. In any forced landing a pilot has to make the best of a bad job. He can do no other. In two cases which have hit the headlines in the last year or so (the 777 which just managed to flop over the fence into Heathrow and the Airbus ditched in the Hudson river), the pilots concerned have been surprised to find themselves publicy fêted as "heroes".

My case was the same as theirs (in kind, though much smaller in degree). Naked self-preservation was the name of the game. Three questions arise: Did I do a good job? - Yes! Was I "incredibly" (in the true sense of that now much abused word) lucky? - Yes! Was I a "hero", in any sense? - Sorry folks, but No! I did what had to be done, and so did they, and we all got away with it, and there's no more to be said.

That's all for the moment, Goodnight, all, Danny42C.

---------------------


EPILOGUE
________


Since that February morning in Burma, long, long ago, I've often looked back on it and it's become obvious where I went wrong. I should never have decided, in the absence of other symptons, that the oil pressure gauge was at fault. I should have "played safe", assumed the worst and acted accordingly. I should have hung on to my 3,000 feet to the end, dumped my bombs "safe" (there was no provision for dumping fuel), and perhaps lowered 20°-30° flap (which would have given me a lttle more gliding distance if the engine failed).

The coast was not far away, I could have followed the shoreline North until I was close to base. There were miles of sandy beaches. Apart from a few inshore net fishermen, these would be mostly empty, if necessary a wheels-up landing should be easy.

Then I should never have come down into the circuit, but kept my height until overhead the strip (as it happened, the engine would have kept going till then), and used the "90° Left" or "270° Left" procedure taught me in the U.S. for forced landings. (How many times had I practiced this at Carlstrom Field in Florida !) From 3,000 ft, wheels down and 120-130 mph, it should have been child's play to dead-stick it down at one end of the strip or other (there wasn't much wind anyway, just a light sea breeze across the runway in any case).

Instead, you know what happened ! It was amazing luck that I wasn't killed (but if I had been it would have been my own fault). But poor "Stew" (who survived with me) wouldn't have deserved to die on that account.

But then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing ? :ok:

Danny.



* * *

Fantome 18th Jun 2016 23:54

Danny42C -

(it come t' pieces in me 'and, Mum) !

now there's a little quip or bon mot from way way back.
it goes hand in hand with her ladyship pointing out to a maid
how dusty the piano was - "Emily . . . I could write my name
right here. ." . . . . "Oh ma'am . . . ain't it wunnerful to be
so edic-ated!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
. . . can't tell you what this has to do with the price of fish .. . but . . .

Old mate Ted Sly ('The Luck of the Draw') with a stream of RAAF
war stories to rival our Danny used to say to any visitor leaving his home in
Byron Bay . . . .. "Remember . . . . fly high. . . and you'll live a long time"

. . . . and of course, as mentioned here before. . . Harry Purvis (also
in the air force for the war years) . .. . after every landing just about he'd turn round and say…

or just murmur to himself . . .. "got away with it again "

Somewhere there's a 1942 photo of Harry standing in front of a Beaufort with the
undercart torn off after a tricky landing at Bachelor in the Northern Territory.
Harry has his arms outstretched wide with a bemused look on his good-looking prize fighter's dial ..
supposedly declaiming

ALONE I DID IT!

Danny42C 19th Jun 2016 15:30

Fantome,

How about:

"Fly low and slow, and plenty of top rudder on the corners"
or
"Slip your Wing
Into the Deck
That's the Thing
Saves your Neck"

or
"I've just done a wonderful Loop"........"Horizontal or Vertical ?"
or
"Stalling between Two Fools"......(Churchill?)
or
"I thought you had control ?"

Danny.

NigG 19th Jun 2016 19:08

Danny

What an incredible story. I read it twice, and will read it again. How it was the bombs didn't detonate, or the fuel go up, is beyond comprehension. Perhaps the designers at Vultee had a hand in it. You're incredibly modest too. In your Epilogue, you criticise your decision-making, effectively making-out that the whole thing would have run without incident had you only done this and that. Seems to me that your decision-making was entirely reasonable, given the paucity of accurate information: it was perfectly 'obvious' that the fuel gauge was faulty; and you had no clear reason to suspect a genuine oil supply failure. It is a miracle, of course, that you didn't join the ranks of other excellent young men, whose names (largely forgotten) are engraved on stone memorials.

When I was about eleven, in the 1960s, I was attending a Prep School in the south of England. Quite a few of the staff were ex-wartime servicemen. Two of these I remember well. Major Duffy and Brigadier MacKenzie. Both were very kind, unlike some of the stricter members of staff. Yet we were in respectful awe of them. Major Duffy had a deep red, jagged scar beneath his eye. As a Royal Marine, he had been hit by shrapnel as he prepared to descend the side of a ship and into a landing craft. Brigadier MacKenzie had lost his arm. His tank had been knocked-out in the Western Desert, when his unit was over-run. Later, lying in a hospital bed, a senior Afrika Korps officer stopped to talk to him and express regret that he had had to lose a limb. It was Field Marshall Rommel.

I think, Danny, with your battle scar, you stand among heroes.

Danny42C 20th Jun 2016 10:50

Is there a Hero in the house ?
 
NigG,

...How it was the bombs didn't detonate, or the fuel go up, is beyond comprehension. Perhaps the designers at Vultee had a hand in it...
This was a result of my coming in fast. I knew that with a full bomb load and almost full fuel load, I had to put it down smoothly, and appear to have done so, although I have no recollection of the event (a common effect of concussion, I'm told).

Once on the ground, medium sized HE Bombs, "safe" with protective caps locked onto the fuzes by the fuzing links, can comfortably survive most frontal impacts. They can be be "dumped" from enormous heights, tens of thousands of feet and, streamlined as they are, probably attain a terminal velocity of 6-700 mph and still not explode, but bury themselves deep in the ground. "Duds" from WWII are still being found far down.

Fuel was a different matter. Nearly all of it was in the wings, and they were knocked off by trees early on. "Jungle" in the Arakan was not Amazonian rainforest, but more like open English woodland. They told me that the wings remained more or less intact, the tanks were self sealing, and of course the pumps were off. The 20 gallon "trap tank" underneath me contained quite enough to cremate us, but as the tank was in the forward part of the fuselage and as that (with the cockpits) didn't break up, we were all right. And of course, we were very lucky indeed. And the VV was "built like the Forth Bridge" - and that helped !

...Seems to me that your decision-making was entirely reasonable, given the paucity of accurate information: it was perfectly 'obvious' that the fuel gauge was faulty; and you had no clear reason to suspect a genuine oil supply failure...
No, I can't exculpate myself as easily as that. I should have assumed the worst scenario from the outset and acted accordingly (shows the danger of jumping to concusions !)

...It was Field Marshal Rommel...
(From Wiki): [his] "consistent decency in the treatment of allied prisoners earned him the respect of many opponents, including Claude Auchinleck, Archibald Wavell, George S. Patton, and Bernard Montgomery".[440]

There were other great gentlemen in those days. This excerpt from my #4277 on p.214 of "Pilot's Brevet" relates to the late, well loved ACM Sir "Gus" Walker. (You may find that whole page amusing ["CAS" is Chief of the Air Staff, btw, by the way], a 4-star Air Chief Marshal).

...There was a heartwarming story, dating from before I got to Strubby, that a little lad of 9 or 10 had lost his right forearm in a tractor accident on some Lincolnshire farm. "Gus" made a point of visiting him in hospital as soon as he came round from surgery, ("Gus" wearing full kit and regalia), to have a chat and show the little chap that all was not lost - as he himself had suffered exactly that same injury...D.

...I think, Danny, with your battle scar, you stand among heroes...
We'll agree to differ. As I said before: "I did what had to be done, and got away with it, and there's no more to be said"....:ok:

Danny.

Fantome 20th Jun 2016 11:27

never met a war vet yet who was not uncomfortable with any mention
even hinting at 'heroic'. And then again it has often been said that those who deserved a gong and were left out far far exceeded those who could put up
their ribbons.

but I did not come in here to pass on these thoughts . .. . I was thinking
along far more of the light hearted than the deadly serious.
(Peter O'Toole said when asked how it was on location with Guinness making Lawrence that he never looked forward to the day's start when more often than not AG would slip into the tent with a face like a plate of condemned veal.)

No . .. talk of loops vertical or horizontal immediately calls to mind the late Chris Braund. . .he of the pronounced stammer. As recounted elsewhere here Chris had bought a disposals Mustang from Tocumwal and after legitimising all the paper work required to have your own private WW11 fighter was often invited to perform at air shows.

Picture Chris early one Sunday morning transiting Sydney for the Naval air base at Nowra down the south coast to attend an airshow. .. As it was so quiet on the tower frequency and as the morning was so glorious he requested an orbit of the Harbour Bridge. Report on conclusion says the tower. So what does the perpetual boy do .. . he goes down under the bridge . .you can almost hear the Merlin's reverberating throb coming back off the walls of Kirribilli House . . then up up and over in a graceful arc. Well next day no surprise he was on the mat at DCA headquarters at Waverton in Sydney. His defence? . . " I requested an or. .or. .orbit. Permission was g.g.g.granted . Orbit can b.b.be d.d.ddefined as 'to d.d.d.describe a c.c.circle about." N.n.n.n nothing about wh.wh.whether it is h.h.h.h.horizontal or v.v.v.vertical." The regional director (an old warbird himself as Chris was) laughed himself hoarse and decided it never happened.

Wander00 20th Jun 2016 11:59

Gus Walker, now there was a man to look up to


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