Like Brakedwell I also did the 12 week course at Kirton Lindsey in 1956. After 2 weeks leave found myself on Empresss of Britain en route to Canada. In those days "officers" always went first class. So, dinner was in mess kit (Best blue, white shirt and bow tie). One important thing IOT had neglected was to teach us how to tie a bow tie. The cabin steward had to complete my officer training.

And that's your excuse, is it.....:ooh:

The single-ended bow tie was bad enough, but yoof-of-today is at least largely spared the horrors of wing collars and stiff-fronted shirts!

and White waistcoats.

I wonder how livers-in manage now with so many living out? Corridors used to be full of the partly dressed finding someone that could tie a bow tie.

There you are BEagle, 5 years undergoing some form of Officer Training at CWL and UAS and no Office Simulator!

I did the 16 week course in the early 70's in Bedfordshire and being destined to be aircrew I paid scant regard to the lessons on Admin, File Systems and the like. The "Office Simulator" was, however, a good place to put some of that "admin stuff" into context.

I soon had to learn about File Systems, however, when I broke my arm at BFTS and the CI told me to re-organise the Ops Wing File system. Well, after 2 months it was re-organised, but who knows how well?

Back to the question, 16 weeks is plenty of time to train prospective aircrew in all they need to be an RAF Officer. Even the most expeditious training program would allow further development during BFTS, AFTS and TWU. More important, to get pilots to the front line quickly needs a restructure of the training system. There only needs to be 2 ac types flown prior to OCU. The secret is to have the correct aircraft, and the Tutor is NOT one of them!

If the process is to be successful the RAF needs to select those with the best aptitude to be pilots. Their potential to become CAS is of little importance at that stage. Select the best, not just the first that pass Selection to the minimum standard!

Stiff white dress shirts
 

This has gone on long enough without a uniform story

RAF Regt guard Buck House because the date is special

Officer warned Duke of E might invite him to dine if quiet night in, be ready. He does

Duke comments RAF don't wear stiff shirts any more?

Regt Off replies "oh yes but only for special occasions"

Rest of meal is quiet, It's only a story

just trying to recall how many times I have read it on PPRuNe. :ouch:

S-D

Bow Ties ... I was shocked to dicover at OCTU (Feltwell 65) and subsequently how few RAF Officers could tie a bow tie, even with a mirror and assistance of a few mates.

I should have charged for my Tie-Tying Service, as at BRNC (63/64) it was normal evening wear for Cadets ... and ready-mades were certainly not allowed!

My cummerbund has shrunk.

Moi aussi!

ACW

Yecch ... cummerbunds? Oh, Dear God, what has the RAF sunk to? Where does one place one's fob watch on a gold chain in one of those?

Mercifully, my original 1965 one still fits perfectly, as it's one of those backless ones with an elastic band ... endlessly adjustable! The rest of the gear ... hmmm :(

MPN,

Yes I had the full waistcoat except for the white one which was backless. However, it isn't only the cummerbund which has shrunk - the whole wardrobe seems to have been afflicted with the same shrinking process.

ACW

The white one is in a wardrobe somewhere, along with [I think] the tie and AWFUL shirt/collar] My only real survivor is my full-length, made to measure, chrome leather dress boots made in Singapore. £7 IIRC, and still going strong after ... nearly 50 years :D

As noted on this Forum long ago, I had a wee spat with Mr Snobby at Moss Bros. in Covent Garden when I needed some new Mess Overalls. "Oh, Sir, you can only have 14" hems when wearing Dress boots" ... "I do" ... "Ahhh, oh, Yes Sir" :ok:

Shame about the bloody waistband, and I doubt a tailor could correct those missing 3-4 inches.

When cummerbunds came in and waistcoats went out. Wise heads kept their' s. Sure enough they cane back in.

Even in the days of waistcoats we wore cummerbunds with tropical mess kit. I have a photo of Mrs TTN with some slim bloke I dont recognise at the summer ball at Kai Tak in '68 and I am (I mean he is) wearing one.

I cant remember what colour it was (B & W photo) - was it light blue or did I imagine that?

A simpler Way (my Post p.131, #2612 on "Gaining a R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet...."):
When giving instruction on bow-tie-tying, it is necessary to operate from the rear (particularly, I would think, if your stude were from this "G" Flight ?).

Danny.

Them were the days !

Or Jaguars

It would be a real shame to chop the current IOT in any way.

You old buggers who retired before it got serious - you can stop reading now.

I went through IOT in the mid 90's and thought I got a pretty good grounding in all things useful at the time.
In 2012 I was lucky enough to be allowed to 'experiment' on IOT cadets as part of the research for my Masters thesis. This meant 2 x trips to Cranwell and getting to spend a couple of days observing and chatting to cadets before and during a major exercise.

Hands down, they were better than we were. Their performances under exercise conditions (far harder and more realistic than most anything I endured on IOT or later) were fantastic. They were successfully dealing with issues taken from real, recent ops and doing better than some people who had served on those ops. Their breadth of knowledge and effectiveness was startling. I passed these observations to my own Branch Phase 2 training staff, urging them to go and see what I saw with a view to tweaking training to match this higher calibre of new JO.

I thought those cadets were far better prepared for a more operational, diverse and Joint career. Shame on the Two-Winged Master Race if they meddle to meet their own training timelines.

This minor obsession of the Rupert Factory brigade, in being able to tie a bow tie correctly, is extraordinary. I have been tying my own shoelaces since a very early age. Having spent some 20 years in the only worthwhile rank - Master Aircrew (Frogs and Puddles!!) the obsession came to pass in the form of an obnoxious J.O. at a mixed party. Well oiled, he joined my, then, wife and self and pulled my bow undone. His latent hysterical humour was quickly stifled when I re-tied it and asked, straightfacedly, why he had done that. No answer - so presumably that bit isn't covered in the syllabus.:ugh:

Cheif, suggests my amendment makes more space.

Of course by widening the net, lowering the bar, scraping the barrel etc there may be more chance of maintaining a full pipe line, pond sizes or pot :)

To me, it was just a glorified Boy's Scout camp and all a bit of a waste of time. Whether it's 16, 16, 24 or 33 weeks, it's still too long. The constant reduction in flying training hours is however, far more serious.

Perhaps Mr C Hinecap's proposal for operational, diverse, 'joint' officers might be more appropriate for some, but is it a luxury that cannot really be justified until the individual has some professional skills under his/her belt?

Happy New Year, Dan!

I think there is, however, an underlying presumption that officers should be officers first, and pilots second. Of course, experience shows that's not always the case ;)

And there are, apparently, still other Branches in the Royal Air Force besides pilots ... at least, that was what I was told: it may be a foul rumour, of course.

Oh, how wonderful it must be to emerge from the egg, fully formed and with all the knowledge and skill one would ever require :mad:

http://www.tellyads.com/play_advert/...30&type=recent

ah!

"Ignorant and arrogant enough to be a Harrier pilot!" as a neighbour's teenage miscreant son was once described by [of all things] a Catering officer.

I think it's fair to say that all Branches have their general characteristics, but I did find over 30 years that most of them were good and decent people, doing a good job without trumpeting their greatness in the Mess or on the Patch.

But perhaps OQs, as they were known, were sometimes less evident amongst some Branches/Specialisations ;)

When I was a Rockape I regarded most GD officers as not real officers at all, being fit only to act as drivers airframe, etc, and not to exercise command.

Of course as soon as I graduated at Stradishall with a brevet on my tunic I realised that in truth I was now a real officer and no longer a thick Rockape ;)

All a matter of where you are looking from!

Either you didn't read my post or I failed to make myself clear. I was reflecting upon the CURRENT IOT and not some aspiration. For what it's worth, the RAF is severely hampered by those who remain behind the wire and fail to learn how to play nicely with the other children. Unfortunately, they tend to be the Aircrew and the aircraft engineers, and they tend to promote themselves.

Blimey, I must have been thick. It took the RAF 2 years at Halton to turn me into something of some kind of use to the Service......

HB

It seems attitudes haven't changed since I left for pastures greener in 1974. Aeroplanes and those lucky enough to be closely involved with them are a damned nuisance. :sad:

Mr C Hinecap, I don't know why you bother! Your words will never find favour with a bunch of largely long-retired, over-opinionated dinosaurs. The attitude, however, is sadly prevelent and will be why the RAF continues to be endured by the other services as a necessity, rather than embraced as a brother service of warfighting professionals. When I was involved in a further education course in Oxfordshire, the aircrew rarely excelled as they often carried the attitude of expected success and didn't work to achieve that. The officers who usually sat the highest were the Regiment guys, as they are much more used to properly working in a joint environment.
In a professional, military organisation, there is more to successful operating than just having good piloting skills, and that starts with being an officer in HM Forces, like it or not.

Remember those little stickers which used to appear everywhere:

Of course that was long before 'visions', 'mission statements' and the seeming need for mantras such as 'Agile Adaptable Capable'...:rolleyes:

I was merely questioning whether it wouldn't be preferable to shave something off the present IOT syllabus and transfer it to a later point in an individual's career - such as after his/her first tour?

Just how much of that IOT stuff does the average JO aircrew mate remember anyway, once he/she reaches his/her first squadron?

Rifle drill, boot polishing, hairy blues. Bed blocks, Rock lectures and the Rock who 'idly' wrote each answer on a blackboard, wiped it off, wrote the next one etc.

Those eyes down missed it. those looking for inspiration soon twigged.

Acidic water crossings, bent scaffold poles, tents with poles and guys.

Parachute rolls, dinghy drills, parades.

The main lesson?

Find a good hotel on away days and avoid sharing a room if possible.

MG
 

Thank goodness I don't need help crossing the road! :D

A couple of the more worthwhile events at IOT was to go down a coal mine and to be taken round a steelworks. Objective was to give us an understanding of just what it was that we might be fighting and giving our lives for. That did impress me. Otherwise I have to agree it was a bit like a glorified boy scout camp.

Sadly, IOT students visiting a coal mine or steelworks is no longer an option in the UK! So that is 2 days by which they could shorten the course.

My Graduate Entrant time at RAFC coincided with the oil crisis, the 3-day week, NUM working to rule and various other socialist strikes....

So I don't think that a visit to a coal mine would have been terribly popular on either side!

Then came 5 years of galloping 2-figure inflation and low military pay under labour misrule, before Maggie T came into power and sorted things out.

Pontiflex, we visited Wiils Tobago but our escort was Customs and Excise. Also Dowry propellers but these were at Navy School not IOT.

Fast forward 30 years and Nav school studeds had to organize their own trips and also organise a fund raising event while in Basics. My lot, now embracing a gp capt and AVM exhibited all the abilities of a wet paper bag competition and failed to organise the charity event.

Probably why the boss didn't get an OBE and took a sabbatical as a missionary in South America.

Going back a bit.....

No-one has answered that, so i can say that my Sandhurst course was 2 years, but had a very large "academic" content because the idea was that Sandhurst was the equivalent of a University degree. So we were turned out, up to the early 60s at least, as impeccably dressed, well-mannered 2nd Lieutenants without a huge amount of military skill, but well-versed in military history and, in my case, an Interpreter Class II qualification.

This is not all that relevant to flying aeroplanes; the Army's approach at that time was that driving its many aircraft, helicopters, Beavers, and so on, was a task that any NCO could do just as well as an Officer, so reasonably intelligent trainees from the ranks were promoted to Corporal (or Bombardier) when they went off to fly.

This annoyed the hell out of the RAF, who were determined to remove all non-commissioned pilots on the grounds that flying was an amazing skill that only Officers could perform, which was probably the main reason for the Army adopting that policy.

My Dad, wartime instructor (Rhodesia) then a Lancaster pilot shot down near to Munich and captured as a Sqn Ldr in 1943, said that lack of social skills training seemed not to make all that much difference to pilots' and crews' determination and ability to deliver their bomb-load accurately on to the target.

Some did it as best they could, some didn't. Some, very few, succumbed to terror, dumped the load under a shallow pretext and went home. Neither their commission or lack of it nor how they held their knife and fork was a factor, nor was their familiarity with a bow tie.

TTN.....One to the Manor must be born.

Social Climbing is still just that.:E

Capot, you remind me of further ITS lessons, calling cards, Stradling, dining in nights - mess rugby, changing those 'orrible once aertex boxers shorts ONCE PER WEEK

Eek!

Perhaps the time has come to re-introduce the Supplementary List. Not all officers (aircrew) have the ability or desire to become CAS. Churn out pilots faster; after all, many will leave for more lucrative civilian careers (I did). At a later stage, select those with the aptitude; put them on the General List, and give them the education they will need in more senior positions.