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-   -   SU-24 Self Defence capability? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/571065-su-24-self-defence-capability.html)

Madbob 24th Nov 2015 18:34

SU-24 Self Defence capability?
 
Like everyone reading about the Turkish F-16 shooting down a Russian Su24 I am concerned about the ramifications and shocked by the barbaric treatment of the unfortunate crew. The reason for starting this thread is to postulate what self-defence capability does a Su24 have in the way of RWR, towed decoys, jamming, flares and chaff that could defeat an AAM in the AIM 9, AMRAAM, ASRAAM class?


Surely the crew would have had some on-board warning and failing that, with them flying at 19,000 ft, wouldn't a ground based radar controller not have tipped them off about a couple of Turkish fighters shaping up for an engagement? A sharp break to the south at any point would have kept then safe.......


May the two crew RIP.


MB

AreOut 24th Nov 2015 19:22

they didn't expect it, that's the main problem

and if they did they wouldn't go there without fighter escort in the first place

Lonewolf_50 24th Nov 2015 19:37


Originally Posted by AreOut (Post 9190720)
they didn't expect it, that's the main problem

and if they did they wouldn't go there without fighter escort in the first place

Got it in one.

Courtney Mil 24th Nov 2015 20:01

I hadn't really paid much attention to the model, but assuming Fencer D; the following may well have been taken in Syria (too big for PPRuNe hence just a link) and shows some of its self-protection kit:

http://quwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SU-24-1.jpg

Antennas on fin are RWR with internal ECM, chaff and flare. However, this kit is mainly optimised for low level since the B model; the moving ramps became fixed, reducing max speed at altitude from over M2 to around M1.3 making them more vulnerable at medium level. In terms of technology it's an old design, but has been developed and upgraded so it's no slouch.

Kitbag 24th Nov 2015 20:09

Slight drift here, I've seen 'BBC POCCИИ' on quite a few pics, does anyone know the translation?

AreOut 24th Nov 2015 20:10

Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily Rossii

Russian military airforce

Kitbag 24th Nov 2015 20:12

Ahh, the equivalent of http://www.raf.mod.uk/images/logoRAF.gif

LowObservable 24th Nov 2015 20:13

VVS Russia = Russian Air Force

AreOut 24th Nov 2015 20:45

it's interesting that (as a russian speaker) I got asked from Brits several times do they really have BBC as a sponsor...

unmanned_droid 25th Nov 2015 00:24

A little reading around shows the chaff/flare dispensers to be the white areas on the top of the fuselage towards the front of the horizontal stabiliser, there's one each side.

I went looking because I was sure I had seen chaff/flare dispensers scabbed on to the fuselage on some, and that is correct, there are variants with chaff/flare dispensers built on to the back of the aft upper fuselage air intakes, and they cover the internal positions.

Will the crew have been flying around that area with constant chiming from the RWR receiver not letting them forget they were being looked at by various radars in various modes? I wonder if it can all be muted...

In my opinion, it's disappointing that shooting down the aircraft was the recourse chosen from what the Turkish say was a total of 17 seconds over their territory.

SASless 25th Nov 2015 00:41

Russians do not take lightly to violations of their airspace as i recall.....KAL 007 for example!

jolihokistix 25th Nov 2015 01:23

According to this article, it was the second of two Su24s.


Quote:
"Turkey said its fighter pilots acted after two Russian Su-24 bombers ignored numerous warnings that they were nearing and then entering Turkish airspace. In a letter to the U.N. Security Council and Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Turkey said the Russian warplanes violated its airspace “to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles ... for 17 seconds” just after 9:24 a.m.
It said one of the planes then left Turkish airspace and the other one was fired at by Turkish F-16s “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and crashed on the Syrian side of the border."


Turkey says Russian jet violated its airspace, ignored repeated warnings ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion

chevvron 25th Nov 2015 02:31


Originally Posted by SASless (Post 9190986)
Russians do not take lightly to violations of their airspace as i recall.....KAL 007 for example!

Way back about 1960 +/-, a C130 flying along the border between (I think) Turkey and the USSR was shot down too.

TowerDog 25th Nov 2015 03:11

And KAL 902 was shot down by the USSR in 1978 after straying into their airspace, a B-707. :sad:

ORAC 25th Nov 2015 06:54

The area in question is a hot combat zone where the Turks have engaged Syrian helicopters transgressing the border, if you want to compare it to another area then consider Eastern Ukraine - and the number of combat aircraft **** down by both sides in the last couple of years. The Russians were complacent and should have known better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...rainian_crisis

Ukrainian troops shot down one of the four attacking SU-25

Courtney Mil 25th Nov 2015 08:48

I'm surprised this hasn't been picked up on yet. According to BBC Newsnight last night, although the aircraft probably did fly through a couple of kilometres of Turkish airspace, it was actually hit after it had left. Probably too far outside the border to account for time of flight of the missile. In the screenshot image below the aircraft was hit at the position marked 9:24. They reported that it was a Sidewinder.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/...skruiaela.jpeg

ORAC 25th Nov 2015 08:57

With the reported width of the Turkish salient, I'm guessing each of those squares is 5km a side? Backtrack the flight path of both jets and see how close they get with what geometry, and then the launch point and missile trajectory.

I make it about 15nm to 20nm launch range, which makes it iffy for Sidewinder, and for the intercept point it would have had to fly and even greater range curve of pursuit. Looks like an extreme range shot and a lucky kill, but I'm 20 years out of date, and as a controller not a QWI.

Anyone qualified want to work it out?

p.s. I also find it strange the F16 didn't turn to keep the SU-24 on his nose, or was he tracking the second aircraft? From that point and heading he'd have to do a tight starboard turn to stay in Turkish airspace himself.

Courtney Mil 25th Nov 2015 09:20

A lot more than iffy for a sidewinder. Even at 20,000' it doesn't come close to being inside Turkey at mx launch.

Just realised, I posted this on the wrong thread. I'll add it to the Su 24 shoot down thread. Sorry.

BEagle 25th Nov 2015 09:23

I'm not sure whether the entire track of the intercepting F-16 has been shown on that map.

Nevertheless, the reported firing distance and geometry look rather extreme for a Sidewinder shot, assuming that it was actually fired from inside Turkish airspace....

Personally, I suspect that the missile used was an AIM-120, probably fired BVR....:uhoh:

ORAC 25th Nov 2015 09:31

Looks like an AMRRAM shot, not sidewinder. Check their last engagement in the area......

"Along with the F-16C that downed a Syrian Mi-17 Hip helicopter back in 2013, another interesting plane can be found at Konya airbase, in Turkey, where Tiger Meet 2015 exercise is currently being held.

It is the F-16C serialled 91-008, belonging to the 182 Filo (squadron), that shot down a Syrian Arab Air Force Mig-23 Flogger on Mar. 23, 2014.

On that day, the SyAAF Mig-23, flying with another aircraft of the same type, approached the Turkish-Syrian border at around 13.00 LT. While one of the Floggers turned back, the other aircraft violated the Turkish airspace by about 1 km, at 13.13LT. It then continued to fly inside Turkey’s airspace for about 1.5 km until it was hit by an AIM-120 AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) fired by the F-16C 91-008 in Combat Air Patrol near the border."

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content...up-706x559.jpg


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