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-   -   Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/566533-hawker-hunter-crash-shoreham-airshow.html)

Above The Clouds 22nd Aug 2015 12:47

Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow
 
Another sad weekend for the airshow circuit, reports of a Hawker Hunter lost at the Shoreham Airshow so far no info about the pilot but I hope he/she ejected safely.

Treble one 22nd Aug 2015 12:49

Initial reports not looking good from inside the show. Failed to recover coming out of a loop (reported via a friend inside the show).

Treble one 22nd Aug 2015 12:57

Now reports the crash near to or on the A27.


Unconfirmed reports that the pilot was apparently pulled from the burning wreckage.


Pilot pulled from burning plane at Shoreham Airshow - BBC News

Fluffy Bunny 22nd Aug 2015 13:04

Sorry it's the Torygraph, but more news from the scene.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...am-Air-Show.ht

Reports are saying that cyclists and cars on the A27 have been hit, but other reports are saying the pilot has been pulled from the wreckage and is off to hospital. Think it's time to wait out until these reports are consolidated and confirmed.
Another sad day. Especially as it's the T7.

ppl1976 22nd Aug 2015 13:13

Update to Torygraph link.

Plane crashes at Shoreham Air Show - Live - Telegraph

Dysonsphere 22nd Aug 2015 13:13

new pic on BBC looks like 2 impact points first and then bounce.

Plane crashes at Shoreham Airshow - BBC News

Rakshasa 22nd Aug 2015 13:19

Don't unclench just yet, looks like the "pilot pulled from wreckage" relates to a light a/c forced landing at Sandown an hour ago.

GeeRam 22nd Aug 2015 14:26


Originally Posted by Treble one
Now reports the crash near to or on the A27.

Photos and videos do seem to suggest hitting ground close to the junction of the Coombes Road and A27 and debris/fireball going across A27 :(:(

Satellite_Driver 22nd Aug 2015 14:30

This video has just been posted and appears to have been taken from the higher ground overlooking the crash site. It shows the manoeuvre before the crash and (warning for those who view it) the crash itself.

https://youtu.be/lz0ZOpquWdg

GeeRam 22nd Aug 2015 14:51

Sussex Police seem to be reporting two cyclists on A27 being killed as well as injuries to a number of motorists.........:(:(

Brian W May 22nd Aug 2015 15:06

Poor sods on the A27 just going about their own business.

I HATE airshows, I've lost so many friends/aquaintances in them . . .

RIP all concerned and real consideration for all the Emergency Services involved in the aftermath.

As for getting knickers in a twist over the pilot, I'm far more concerned with those who were involved and not volunteers. They are the real victims, poor souls.

Flarkey 22nd Aug 2015 15:25

https://twitter.com/ian_wfc/status/635105236420546560 :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNBYttRWIAAHueY.jpg

Wilko49 22nd Aug 2015 15:48

7 confirmed fatalities, 1 in hospital with life threatening injuries.

Wilko49 22nd Aug 2015 15:53

Canopy is open in that photo.

Fonsini 22nd Aug 2015 16:02

How many more low altitude loop crashes will we have to see, every one of them makes me sick to my stomach :(

Judging by the high angle video he so nearly made it, reminds me of the equally terrible Hawk 200 crash in so many ways.

Sympathies to the pilot and his family, but as for those poor people out for a nice bike ride through the countryside - that is truly horrible.

glad rag 22nd Aug 2015 16:04


Originally Posted by Brian W May (Post 9091037)
Poor sods on the A27 just going about their own business.

I HATE airshows, I've lost so many friends/aquaintances in them . . .

RIP all concerned and real consideration for all the Emergency Services involved in the aftermath.

As for getting knickers in a twist over the pilot, I'm far more concerned with those who were involved and not volunteers. They are the real victims, poor souls.

Thank you Brian for that voice of sanity.

7 killed so far... I cannot easily convay my anger at this needless loss of life- FOR WHAT?

I hope the injured and bereaved fully appreciate the defensive arguments from those in favour of stunt flying geriatric military fast jets that are due to follow...

http://thumbsnap.com/s/6Su8J1hr.jpg?0822

RIP to those out for a drive on a sunny Saturday afternoon...

TOWTEAMBASE 22nd Aug 2015 16:21

Hawker Hunter Loss at Shoreham Airshow
 
How was that photo taken ? Those poor people just to the right of the picture. Look like workmen in orange vests ? Time to call it a day I reckon, too many recently.

TOWTEAMBASE 22nd Aug 2015 16:33

Hawker Hunter Loss at Shoreham Airshow
 
Is that another loss for North Weald ?????

Mrmungus 22nd Aug 2015 16:36


How was that photo taken ? Those poor people just to the right of the picture. Look like workmen in orange vests ? Time to call it a day I reckon, too many recently.
I would guess they were the marshals directing the traffic to the show.

Looking at the Video It seems to deviate 90 degrees off track from the start of the pull up. Is this not a messed up Roll off the top rather than a loop that missed the gate height.

I agree, too many punchy displays.

Start and end high then fly down. it looks the same to the audience.

RIP everyone.

Lima Juliet 22nd Aug 2015 16:50

Yes, sadly this echos Abingdon 88 and Bratislava 99 to me - missed gate heights are a killer as are loaded rolls as you go over the top. We nearly had one with the Typhoon at RIAT in 05 as well that missed the ground by 10s of feet...:eek:

Thoughts are with the Bona Mate that I've been told was flying...:(

Link to video for those that want draw their own conclusions to this tragic event:

good finish 22nd Aug 2015 16:50

Every injury and death is a tragedy and my condolences to the families.
However, to those calling for displays to be cancelled are you going to stop driving your cars? because lots of innocent people are killed and injured by cars by people making journeys in them for pleasure.

Two's in 22nd Aug 2015 16:55

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"Think before you post" is NOT a condition of the Internet, in fact, the very opposite is true.

Onceapilot 22nd Aug 2015 16:55

Sad,:sad:
It was not "a loop".

OAP

Lima Juliet 22nd Aug 2015 17:05

Re: Loop

Looks like a 1/4 clover to me?

RAFEngO74to09 22nd Aug 2015 17:12

Very sad.

More close up pictures here - level just above the trees but must have still had a high sink rate.

Warning: disturbing close ups of some of the vehicles involved.

Shoreham Airshow plane crash as Hawker Hunter hits A27 as the pilot survives fireball | Daily Mail Online

TOWTEAMBASE 22nd Aug 2015 17:15

Hawker Hunter Loss at Shoreham Airshow
 
Good finish, how can you compare this to a car accident. It's just too common an occurrence now with old aircraft at airshows. Car accidents will always happen because cars will always exist, grounding these ac will eliminate them killing their pilots and others on the ground. Surely they can't fly forever. Thoughts are with everyone involved

McDuff 22nd Aug 2015 17:15

Echoes of Bratislava 99?
 
"Yes, sadly this echos Abingdon 88 and Bratislava 99 to me - missed gate heights are a killer as are loaded rolls as you go over the top. We nearly had one with the Typhoon at RIAT in 05 as well that missed the ground by 10s of feet..."

The pilot who died in 99 at Bratislava was a friend of mine. I never saw the report from the inquiry, but I understood from a fellow BAe pilot that Graham might have mistaken his line and taken too long to adjust on the way down from a looping manoeuvre. I didn't think that he had missed a gate, as such.

But I'd be grateful for a pointer to any report that anyone might have.

As for the Typhoon at RIAT, I watched that from the walk back to the car park; I've never seen anyone go as low as that and climb away again.

McD

spargazer 22nd Aug 2015 17:15

and
 
woodford 91, G-ALGT

The Old Fat One 22nd Aug 2015 17:27


....your wild theories and demanding display flying should be banned, i would suggest you allow an inquiry to be held.
I think you can safely assume that there will be more than one...police, HSE, coroners office, CAA and a ton of representing QCs. A giant spotlight is going to be shone brightly into the world of displaying old aircraft and it is going to play out in the full glare of the media.

People died and it's 2015, not 1952.

RAFEngO74to09 22nd Aug 2015 17:28

LJ,

Typhoon at RIAT 2005 - I was there - could not have been closer - spectator expletives at 00:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQbBxc7ixYM

Arcanum 22nd Aug 2015 17:31


However, to those calling for displays to be cancelled are you going to stop driving your cars? because lots of innocent people are killed and injured by cars by people making journeys in them for pleasure.
Most of life in the western world is about minimising and balancing risk. By way of examples, a 70MPH motorway speed limit is set to balance reasonable progress against the risk of injury from an accident at that speed. However, it's up to you whether you travel at night in a rainstorm or wait until the weather is better in the day. You can attend a motor race which has crash barriers and fences, but you get to chose where you stand and the back of your admission ticket will say there is risk of injury or death. Similarly, if you attend an airshow the organisers will have a display line and the pilots should have display clearance, but you are assuming some personal risk. In the UK, in most scenarios, you get to chose the level of risk you assume in an already regulated environment.

It's fair to say that while the people out on their bikes or driving their cars assumed some risk of a traffic accident, they probably would not think it was acceptable for an aircraft flying for fun in an airshow was going to make this day their last. I doubt their families do either.

Whether you like it or not, when there are a few significant instances of aircraft accidents like this it enters the public consciousness and society will ask if airshows with private fast jets are an acceptable risk. I suspect the answer will soon be no and it should be left to the professionals. Not, sadly, that the professionals are infallible either. Which is unfortunate for those of us who want to see classic aircraft like Gnats and Hunters flying, but that's the way it is.

Indeed, even if officialdom doesn't step in, it wouldn't surprise me if there are legal & insurance ramifications from this incident which makes private display flying prohibitively expensive in the future.

I say all this as someone who had the incredibly good fortune to spend just under 1-hour in WV372 almost 15-years ago when it was part of Delta jets. It was my first and likely only time in a fast-jet and I will always remember the experience. Such a shame that the aircraft is no more. Far more of a tragedy for all of the people and families who have been caught up in this incident.

Lima Juliet 22nd Aug 2015 17:34

McD

I was there and watched the sad loss of GW in Slovakia in 99. I also watched his practice the day before where he came perilously close to doing the same thing. He needed to unload as he rolled over the top and he seemed to do the same thing twice - second time around with tragic consequencies for both him and an airport workers wife who had been smuggled onto the display line. It was one of the hardest things to watch as the whole thing appeared to be in slow motion and I remember hearing him frantically trying to pull up as you heard the jet pulling to the buffet.

Video here:

I posted these words on this very forum a few years back and the great John Farley agreed with my analysis at the time:

"So in my opinion, what might have killed GW?

1. Not unloading during the roll over the top and then burying the nose when below gate height. You could hear him pulling through the light buffet to the heavy buffet as he realised he had run out of room to pull out.

2. I seem to recall that GW was not a display pilot but was the company roll-demo pilot/test pilot. I suspect that he may not gone through the same rigorous work-up process that a display team normally does for a pre-season display authorisation (I might be wrong on this though).

3. The Flying Control Committee (or equivalent in Slovakia) should not have let him display after his pre-airshow display performance (again, in my personal opinion). But that is hindsight."

Full thread: http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...0-crash-2.html

I too have never seen an accident report to this tragedy, but having just watched the Hunter this afternoon I have had a horrible feeling of deja vu.

LJ

Lima Juliet 22nd Aug 2015 17:52

I think that this accident may be the beginnings of a change seen after the 1952 Farnborough accident with John Derry and Anthony Richards flying a DH110. That was the last major 3rd party loss of life at a UK airshow (4 times today's fatilities). Pretty much all of today's rules and regs in CAP403 come from Duncan Sandy's inquiry into the 1952 crash.

I must admit, as a Display Director, some display venues have made me feel distinctly uneasy of late when considering the local area at certain venues. Indeed I have displayed at Shoreham about 10 years ago and remember seeing Lancing College close by (the big imposing structure in most of today's tragic pictures) and thinking what would happen if I crashed into that! More recently, some of the camp sites and unofficial spotters enclosures that have sprung up around RIAT have also made me raise an eyebrow - they kind of make a mockery out of the 'crowd line'!

Accidents like the ones we have seen today and with the recent Gnat fatality show that the display venue either needs to have a more sterile display area (ie. not over the venue entrance and a major road) or at least to a higher height above the ground to give the pilot more options should there be an issue.

Very sad to see and such a tragic and needless loss of life, in my humble opinion. My condolences to all involved.

LJ

Cows getting bigger 22nd Aug 2015 18:05

From a regulatory perspective, there is nothing worse than 'uninvolved third party' fatalities. Politically, this event will make the Battersea A109 crash look almost insignificant.

So sad and probably avoidable. Adieu Hilz.

LJ, we crossed. I agree, Shoreham is not a great place to do a high speed display.

Two's in 22nd Aug 2015 18:19

1988 may seem like a long time ago, but over 70 people were killed at Ramstein because velocity vectors and sterile areas were not well understood.

JointShiteFighter 22nd Aug 2015 18:24

My sincerest condolences to the families of all who lost their lives today. It's horrible to think that, that could have been me as I would have needed to travel on that very road to get to the show (instead I decided this morning to go tomorrow, but I shan't be going at all now). I hope those who were injured make a full recovery.

As for the Typhoon at RIAT 2005, I saw the same display sequence by the same pilot just two months later (incidentally, at Shoreham). During his display at RIAT, he had the opportunity to pull the handles, but he didn't. I'm curious as to why? He got very, very lucky and I hope he's still enjoying his fast-jet flying career, a decade later.

Feathers McGraw 22nd Aug 2015 18:32

In response to JSF's comment, would a Typhoon display pilot have the velocity vector on the HUD and be making use of it in a display? If the VV is above the horizon it means you are going to miss the ground...

Above The Clouds 22nd Aug 2015 18:41

http://news.images.itv.com/image/fil...stream_img.jpg

From the heat signature it does seem to be developing thrust contrary to comments elsewhere about a flame out.

Courtney Mil 22nd Aug 2015 18:41

But VV below the horizon does not mean you are going to hit the ground. It also can't tell you if you're not.

TaranisAttack 22nd Aug 2015 18:43

I was at the Bournemouth Airshow today, an excellent display was put on! Planes performing stunts near the ground, often in quite old aircraft, it's natural that there are going to be accidents. Lots of precautions are taken to minimise the risks, and the pilots are clearly very capable. We equally could consider the risks to life by having so many people, who are often elderly, out in the sun and at risk of dehydration and heatstroke. Or the risks of so many people travelling to and from a major event. The very small risk is the price of such an incredible show. Naturally my condolences go to those involved with and affected by the accident.


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