Reducing the risk by changing the nature of the display whilst over such areas would seem an obvious avenue?

It would be worth considering. And to quote a description of the maneuver immediately before the Lviv disaster, it involved a "downward trajectory at low altitude". It's not unreasonable to discuss altitude as a contributing factor. As for those randomly passing by vs deliberately attending an airshow, I agree there is a difference, but at the same time, among the spectators killed at Lviv there were 28 children, and one could argue that they neither had an adequate grasp of risks involved nor made an independent decision to attend.

Telegraph now reporting deaths as 11 with a possibility of higher.

It occurred to me after our previous posts, the police now declare any car crash resulting in a death as a crime scene and close the area whilst evidence is collected. I imagine the same my now be true of a crash such as this.

Tourist, I agree with your points. Banning airshows isn't the answer, IMHO.


Although we definitely should ban cricket. Nobody should have to endure that boring ****e. It's against human rights, surely? :E


JSF.

Pontius,
Indeed, but I think Satellite Driver's wise words an hour or so back are worth heeding. That's to say that reckless allegations at this, or any subsequent, stage of investigations could be very risky in legal terms.
One or two posts have, in my humble opinion, already crossed the line.

The difference between RTAs and RTCs.

Several of the released videos and photos show that the flaps were 'out' at the commencement of the loop and all points thereafter to impact.

What is the opinion of those who have operated the Hunter on flap use during a maneuver that I would have thought required as little drag as possible to achieve?

*Beagle's post found, thanks*

This issue is commented upon by Hunter mates earlier in this thread.

Sad to hear the mounting loss.
I am a little surprised to read "ban them" comments. However, I expect the investigation will reveal the facts and suitable steps will be taken if required. It seems to me that the costs of insurance could rise substantially. Maybe that is the self-regulating aspect of risk control in our modern times?

OAP

Just Read This.... Thought I'd Post Here for All
 

Information Note following Shoreham Airshow Accident on 22nd August 2015

BADA WEB ADMIN AUGUST 23, 2015 BADA NEWS
INFORMATION NOTE

Sunday 23rd August 2015

The British Air Display Association would like to react to the tragic accident that occurred in Shoreham on Saturday August 22nd and first of all to express our support and condolences for the families and friends of all those affected.

UK has long held an exemplary air display record in terms of public safety.
Prior to Saturday’s accident, the last time a member of the public was killed at a UK airshow was in 1952, nearly 63 years ago.
This record reflects the maturity of the multiple checks and balances that UK aviation regulators and airshow practitioners have developed.
The UK has extensive rules that cover airshow organisation, display aircraft heights, speeds and manoeuvres, flying supervision and a special examination and authorisation process for display pilots with graduated steps from simple flypasts to formation and aerobatics approvals.
In this regard, we are the envy of many other nations, not just in Europe but also across the Atlantic.
The Association will not speculate on how or why this particular accident occurred.
Some people might find that frustrating but at this stage even ‘informed’ speculation, without full knowledge of the facts, is unhelpful.
This is a time when careful analysis of the facts is needed before anyone tries to draw conclusions.
It is certainly not a time for un-informed or miss-informed rule making, especially when the existing rules have worked so well for so long.
Air Accident Investigation Branch experts will establish the facts, as quickly as possible.
Then will we will know whether this was a tragic one-off accident or whether there is more that can be done.
If there are lessons from this, that will be something for all involved in airshows to consider.
Our Association will continue to encourage, promote and advance Safety and Standards in British Air Displays.
About the British Air Display Association:

The British Air Display Association was formed in 2011 to consolidate a number of separate expert communities, each with their own expertise, involved in UK airshows. The Association aims to foster the highest standards throughout UK air displays and arranges conferences before and after each summer’s flying display season a cohesive so that all those involved in UK air displays, whether military or civilian, sponsor, event organiser, aircraft owner, flying supervisor or display pilot can exchange ideas and learn together. The conferences are held in conjunction and with the support of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Military Aviation Authority. Other partners and affiliated organisations are the European Airshow Council, the Historic Aircraft Association and the Honourable Company of Air Pilots.

A sober, balanced, rational statement from the BADA to counter the outrage.

@Onceapilot
There are potentially people under the aircraft. They need to get a crane in before they can say for sure.

LJ posted

All well and good for roads and houses and other such fixed infrastructure, but what about informal gatherings of spectators outside the main show ground - like those in front of the building (pub?) immediately beside this crash site? I recall one of the MiGs crashed immediately in front of one of the many adhoc external viewing areas at RIAT in '92.

Terrifying stuff - the Hunter seems to be lined up on the A27?

I guess that roll just before impact is because he's pulling max alpha, and some? So sad.

Dead_pan,

Unfortunately, it is impossible to accommodate for everyone. I agree that display line should be a set distance away from major roads, residential areas and towns, etc. to protect those who are not attending the show. However, as has been already said, those attending an air show do so at their own risk.

The police will be acting effectively as agents of the AAIB and coroner in this case. They will have the experience and resources to assist in gathering evidence from scene, witnesses and recorded media. They will very much be led in this by the AAIB.
When we're talking about prosecutions it's probably worth looking at the ongoing Glasgow bin lorry crash.
Don't mix up offences with crimes either. Not everything that is an offence is a crime. Drink driving being an example.

With reference to that comment Farnborough, Biggin Hill, Waddington, Duxford....the list is a long one so it's not unusual.

Regardless, thoughts and condolences go out to all involved.

Are you serious? It's a criminal offence, the punishment includes potential imprisonment and it leaves you with a criminal record. Certainly in the UK anyway.

Lot's of digression tonight (as per above) but today's discussion has been notably calmer. Perhaps everyone is at least coming to terms with whats happened.

I mentioned last night that the Police suggesting the casualty figures rising was likely to be a hint. What a shame that it has.

Have to say I am in a state of shock...just over for a rare visit to these shores and have a great weekend in Brighton.

Drove down the a27 on Friday night and the road around the traffic lights was very heavily signposted no stop, no parking and I seem to recall no spectating probably for this very reason..... I guess the usual it won't happen to me prevails amongst the spectators.

On Saturday afternoon was having a pint or two on the seafront outside the old ship hotel and saw Brighton police respond and drive hell for leather down the prom. BZ guys for negotiating the traffic with the speed you did without causing more problems

Have to say the drive back to Pompey today was sobering... Driving through shoreham by the south side of the airport was a moving experience with many of the display signs still out.

Thoughts are most certainly with Alan and all the spectators still battling in hospital and my prayers are with the families of those not so fortunate.

That is all I have to say......

Are you serious? It's a criminal offence, the punishment includes potential imprisonment and it leaves you with a criminal record. Certainly in the UK anyway.

Sorry Para. Offence yes. Crime no. You might get a criminal record but it won't show up on any crime stats and isn't recorded as a crime. Anyway, that takes us away from the point I was making. There are many prosecuting agencies in the U.K. It's not always about criminal behaviour.
(15 year constable)

I don't think you're going to tell people who they should have in their garden or, indeed, field at any time.

Tashengurt,

Fair enough, crossed wires I think. Criminal offence rather than motoring offence. However, back to the main topic.

I was at Bournemouth today, watching the Reds from the west side of Bournemouth pier (where there is no exclusion zone on the water, unlike the other side of the pier) and during one of the synchro pair displays the Hawk travelling from east to west passed his team mate and did a fairly wide roll out, coming low over the pier and losing a fair bit of altitude, only recovering at an altitude similar to the height of some of the yacht masts (10s of feet high and very close) and for a brief moment I feared the worst. Just shows how easily these accidents can happen to the best of the best.

Tom

Basil
 

I'm not seeking to ban people from their own gardens, but if you've been to an airshow recently you will no doubt have seen people watching from just outside the show gates, or in adjacent fields.


Indeed some of the shocking video footage from this incident has been provided by people doing just that (from very close to or on the A27 in some instances).


You are in far more danger watching shows from such vantage points and proverbial 'naughty Fields' under the display line on many occasions, than you are inside the official showground, where distance rules separate you from the display lines for your own safety?

As a non-pilot, unless you count 60 odd hours on Cessnas, and I dont, I feel a little diffident about asking this question on this thread.

However, I find it difficult to follow some of the arguments on this accident, as I did on the recent Gnat accident, because of my lack of knowledge on certain terminology which is obvious familar to experienced pilots, particularly with FJ experience. I would very much like to know what "pulling to (or through) the buffet" means, as well as "pulling max alpha". If anyone would care to take the time to explain these terms in relatively simple language I'd be grateful. This could be done by PM if you prefer not to clog up the thread.

Thanks a lot.

TTN

Hawk98 posted:

Was there yesterday and one of the singletons was slightly over-zealous when lining up for an opposition maneouvre, having to turn back away from the beach and around the pier (not sure how far up/down the beach the A-axis officially extends). Also, the Reds gypo breached the A-axis during their display on the Saturday at RIAT, much to the consternation of experienced spectators. As you said...

I've resisted posting on this thread for as long as I can. Once again there has been a disaster, a crash, people have died. And once again dozens of experts who have been members here for many years and that have found the need to contribute, maybe, a handful of posts over those years, suddenly pitch up with a whole wealth of knowledge and opinion. You are, of course, very welcome.

I have just spent the last hour catching up on this afternoon's posts here and, as usual in these circumstances, too many people have crawled out of the woodwork to draw conclusions (and, worse, express them in public) and translate those opinions into table-thumping demands to ban displays, question the quals, currency and capability of display pilots, cite legal precedent, conduct their own risk assessment of the site and its suitability. Well done, no argument with your reason.

But before you all sound off, why not wait a few days to consider the facts of this particular case, show some respect for those involved (and that does mean just adding a statement of respect to those affected) and wait a short while for, at very least, a preliminary statement from the AAIB and the other services involved.

At the moment, this is about a disastrous air accident. If you really want to start discussing the future of air shows, displays and the manoeuvres authorised, the safety regulations, suitability of sites, the litigation aspects and the quals and supervision of the pilots, why don't you pipe up with your views and start threads about these issues? Why do you need to wait until such a tragic moment to jump on your high horses and drag the thread away from this, one accident to your (in some cases, clearly, long-held) personal soap-boxes about air displays - or have you simply suddenly come to these conclusion?

Last point. Whoever's comment it was about display pilots regularly missing or ignoring gates, if you know that for a fact, you should have acted on it years ago. If you don't know it for a fact, don't state it in public as if it is.

Out.

Courtney mil, well said. I am one of those fairly long-standing members and I don't post that often, but I agree with your point about using this thread to bang the drum about related issues. It is hard to define acceptable thread drift but I do agree that a number of lurkers here are turning this into an anti-air show rant.

If you have strong feelings about displays, start a thread about your issue. This one is not the right place for it.

I sincerely hope the death toll for this totally tragic situation doesn't increase beyond what's been reported.

That includes poor Andy too, who didn't get out of bed on the day in question intending for it to turn out the way it so unfortunately did. That simple yet irrevocable fact passes too many idiots by as they rush to board the outrage bus. Any number of events could have led up to this crash and it's for the AAIB to determine in time.

Thoughts and condolences :(

PS - CM you absolutely nailed it chap, whilst I was also posting.

And so did you.. Well said.

What MSOCS said, in spades. Particularly ref Andy, whom I remember hosting at BoBD outside my Sqn many years ago at the visiting aircrew tent.

Similar 'outrage' and knee jerk followed the Reno crash here in USA.

For the experienced display gurus here (not me): question. That video released from the road seemed to show a very 'squashed' quarter-clover, much less than 90. The camera seemed to be much more on the axis of the maneuver than the telephoto distance vid. Opinions? The reason I ask is that I recall the Abingdon accident was partly caused by maneuvering at the top of the vertical to adjust alignment, bleeding energy below sufficient for the correct pitch rate? Just a thought, and trying to get back to discussion of the circumstances, rather than future legislating.

Condolences to all.

Courtney: :D

This morning's papers are, inevitably, looking for reasons for the crash - and reasons to curtail, or even ban, airshows.

Let us all remember that this forum is seen as a useful source of information by journalists, and post accordingly - being mindful of falling foul of legal process (and complicated online defamation laws).

Several comments in yesterday's papers' later online editions could only, as far as I can make out, have come from PPRuNe.

XV490

I have followed this thread from the very start and I haven't seen anything that could be interpreted as defamatory. No one has been named outright for causing the accident and I believe that the discussion about the venue's suitability and CAA regulations has been pretty fair. What's your beef old chum?

Oh, and this tragic accident has been discussed on just about every aviation related forum in the world - which is quite understandable. I would far sooner see some open opinion in these types of fora than some of the so called experts that are dragged in for a TV/Radio news 'voxpop'!

It is a free country where opinion and open discussion is allowed - something that the aircraft and the pilot involved served in HMforces to protect over many years. I know that he has contributed to other aviation fora in the past to offer his opinion on matters (maybe not so significant as this). That's how the human race learns...through discussion. It's one of our unique capabilities on the planet! :ok:

LJ

what a terrible incident.

just a simple observation is that alot of very experienced professional pilots have misjudged loops in the past with similar outcomes or close shaves.

perhaps, if this is shown to be a misjudgement, one option is to reconsider the conditions for moves like this that are clearly at high risk of misjudgement by even the best.

of course at this stage it is too early to rule out other causes.

The main fact Courtney, is that people uninvolved with the airshow have been killed by a sport/hobby/passion we and others like us enjoy. In my humble opinion, that is not right.

Leon,

I am only suggesting caution because the words 'crime' and 'criminal' have appeared on this thread - which could be seen as accusatory by implication, even without naming names.

Online libel laws are complicated and, of course, differ from country to country. This site's mods are doubtless more au fait with them than I am, but I still reckon it's worth reminding folks to be careful.

That said, I believe that so soon after this tragic event - and with the pilot gravely ill in hospital - using the words above is, at best, insensitive and, at worst, extremely offensive.

A newspaper editor would think twice about publishing a letter containing such views - for fear of falling foul of clearly defined British libel laws. Later on, depending on how legal processes pan out in investigating this tragedy, it may be that such discussion would constitute contempt of court.

I don't have a beef, 'chum' - that's just the way it is.

This topic is staying fairly well reasoned and reasonable. There is another thread on the same topic in the general rumour section, which, well, errr, isn't. It's also been heavily moderated and doesn't show or read particularly well as tempers have flared and posts that have started off reasonably have turned into personal rants and name calling.

Police now reporting death toll could be up to 20.