Oh dear, so, so tragic.

My heart goes out to the bereaved partners and families of all caught up in this hideous maelstrom (RIP).

If this was XV 372, it was the first Hunter I ever flew - with Jim Rutter at Honington on 23 May 1983. Is this the 'start of the end' of fast jet participation on the 'regional airshow' circuit? :(:(

Hawker Hunter Loss at Shoreham Airshow
 

Isn't it also the anniversary of a very tragic event that took place at Manchester airport today ?

OK Courtney, I was aware of that but I don't know when the VV would move from below horizon to above so I wondered if it gave the pilot a cue that he was going to make it.

I hate to think what the outcome of this might be, but the UK does so dearly love to ban anything perceived as remotely dangerous.

Maybe a "g limit" on vintage aircraft could satisfy all and make things safer at the same time. Too much ?

Feathers

If you have waited for your VV to be above the horizon it is probably too late to leave the aircraft if it isn't!

LJ :ok:

That photo also seems to confirm (if my eyes aren't deceiving me) the reports of the flaps being deployed at the commencement of the pull up and all through the sequence.....as shown in the photo linked by Glad Rag earlier and others taken in the sequence...........

:\

Awful. And as others have already identified, very similar to GW in 99. A common factor is the difficulty of having a meaningful 'gate' in a rolling manoeuvre - a gate height is only valid if the subsequent roll and pitch rates match those for which the gate was established - roll (out) too slowly or pitch (down) too fast and disaster beckons, irrespective of any preceding gate. So in other words, a gate is no guarantee of safety in a barrel roll or similar manoeuvre - and can even create a false sense of security.

The shame is no-one needs to see extreme manoeuvres from classic aircraft - they can't compete with modern, agile ac - their appeal lies in their classic lines and their sound - IMHO a flat display with lots of plan form passes would keep the crowds perfectly happy.

Thoughts with all involved.

I agree entirely with Captain Kirk, seeing vintage aircraft is in my opinion enjoyable. But flinging them around the sky is unnecessary. A few turn to show off the lines, some good passes to be seen and heard at close quarters should be sufficient. While I agree with the condolences regarding the loss of another pilot (and most of us have been in danger of that at some time in our careers) I also mourn the loss of rare aircraft that need not have gone down.
Air shows? By all means! But aerobatics for vintage aircraft should cease I think.

Fair point, but a quarter-cloverleaf is a fairly standard way of getting your aircraft facing back towards the display line.

Old/Vintage Aircraft?
 

I have hesitated until now about responding having read some posts on here suggesting ( concluding?) this accident is attributable to the age of the aircraft. Seeing yet another recent post referring to "vintage aircraft", I must now question whether some of these folk ( or readers and poorly informed journos ) have an appreciation of the reality that, irrespective of an aircraft's age, there is a height above a display venue below which should an aircraft be placed in a vertical descent there is insufficient height left to effect a recovery. Do those holding these views about vintage aircraft believe that today's most modern aircraft could not be lost in the manner of today's tragic occurrence? Like other posters on here I too recall the F4 accident at Abingdon when a near neighbour of mine along with a mate who was on my Officer Cadet Entry lost their lives.

Before I am now jumped on about having determined the cause of this accident, I am properly mindful of other possiblities leading to an inability to recover from the vertical even if reached above the the minimum height to enable recovery.

I suspect this incident will lead to new legislation governing air-shows.

Firstly, if the public pay to go to an airshow (or motorsports event), they usually have to sign some sort of acknowledgement that spectating in the show is dangerous. In this instance, people who may have had no idea whatsoever that there was a nearby airshow have been killed.

Second, how on earth was authorisation given to a display that could risk (for whatever reason) a national road, used by public who were not attending the airshow? Outrageous really.

Captain Kirk and Royallist Flyer

I agree. On the BBMF they deliberately don't max perform the aircraft to give a margin for error and seek to 'display' the aircraft rather than provide astonishment. They leave that to the newer aircraft...

LJ

I think a lot of us here have been to air shows since we were children, and taken part in them when we were adults. Maybe I'm getting old and cautious, but I don't ever remember being particularly thrilled by aerobatics at air shows - I wanted to see the aircraft and I wanted to see them fly - old and new. But I think we shouldn't be be attempting to appeal to the lowest IQ crowd. I'm not singling out vintage aircraft. I think there have been enough accidents with non-vintage aircraft over the years when people got a little clever/misjudged and as a result lots of people got killed and injured. I just think that there should be a re-think in order to save the flying displays from being banned.

I've just watched the video again and the pull-out does appear to be a single-plane pitch (no rolling) so a gate height at the top would have been valid, providing that speed was under control. It is not, however, a quarter clover, as the pull to inverted happens before reaching the vertical, with a rolling pull that will reduce height achieved at the top.

Incidentally, this is not speculation - we have a video - it is observation. I could, of course, be mistaken. I will not, however, speculate on why the manoeuvre was chosen or flown in this manner.

LJ/Royalist - spot on.

ATC - blimey, that just looked like someone who had little idea of what they were doing...!

When I was taught Aerobatics, always dinned into me was adequate height, it is very easy to lose height in a manevor.
I know at an airshow you want to be close to the crowd, but it can still look impessive 500 feet higher

BBC are saying that the pilot is still alive.

Cows getting bigger,

There is a pic doing the rounds with what looks like a bang seat in the air, albeit on fire, with what appears to be a person in it. The angle it is at is consistent with the angle of the jet at the time and the canopy on the aircraft is up.

I'm saddened but not surprised at the Police Superintendent warning of further fatalities. Having been in the emergency services for some eighteen years, I would take that as a very high probability. They generally only hint like that when they know themselves, but it's too early to formally confirm. A terrible day.

Incredible he's still alive. Having been at Abingdon when the F4 went in, I agree the attitude of the aircraft just prior to impact is so similar

@Paracab
Witness reports seem to indicate pilot was pulled from burning wreckage, so that would suggest no ejection. This assumes they don't consider a parachute as "burning wreckage". If the aircraft had something to break it's fall and slow it's forward velocity that could help survivability. The cockpit etc would help protect against the fireball assuming the plane didn't clear it. Either way it's incredible to make it to hospital from an impact and fireball like that!

As a non pilot who has enjoyed airshows for many years can I say that I'd rather see a display and not be wowed than not see one at all.
I'm grateful for all those that choose to keep old aircraft flying. I hope my son's will get to enjoy many displays too.
More importantly though, my thoughts are with all affected by today's events.
Many of us know that the ripples from such a tragedy spread much wider and flow much deeper than most appreciate.

GeeRam wrote: Use of 23° flap in the Hunter whilst manoeuvring was quite common when I was taught ACM at Brawdy - just don't leave any flap down above M0.9 or you won't recover. Not relevant here though...

I think we used 320 KIAS and 23° flap for low speed loops - apart from my chum Ozzie who misheard the brief and tried 230 KIAS....once.

It would be amazing if the pilot survived this awful event....:uhoh:

I saw the RIAT Typhoon nearly spread itself in front of the VIP enclosures.... Not quite as bad as a CF-18 I once saw at an Abbotsford airshow, who recovered (just) at about 30 ft and was immediately told to depart and land elsewhere.

Woodford Spitfire, Duxford Firefly, Abingdon F-4, Sknyliv Su-27..... Too many vertical manoeuvres have resulted in accidents over recent years

Looking at this picture the canopy is still attached and there is no sign of an ejector seat launch tube which could suggest there was no ejection sequence, quite incredible that he has survived.

God's speed with the recovery and deepest condolences to everyone else involved with this sad and tragic event.

Cheers Above The Clouds,

That is the picture I was referring to; I guess everything immediately post crash seemed like wreckage amid the chaos.

The planes tv footage from the crowdline is pretty gruesome. It's well shot and has the aircraft almost full frame at impact. However, someone at planes tv is working fairly hard to keep all the "pirate" clips from out of the public domain.
The Daily Fail's stills appear to be either from the footage or from someone with a very similar vantage point. What they don't show however, is the high alfa and the rolling wobble as the inevitable becomes apparent.

I saw this happen. As the aircraft was approaching the ground I could see the underside of the aircraft as it came towards the runway but still descending. it then disappeared behind the heads of the crowd in front of me, a second late I saw the fireball. Strangely, I heard no sound.

Hope this is the end at last of vintage military aircraft and vintage ex military pilots doing unnecessarily higher risk displays over the UK. Needs to be after this year.
BZ yet again to the fire and emergency services involved for keeping calm and carrying on (bravely).

I just saw the aftermath video - cars on fire, wreckage - horrific.

Not posting it here, if anyone feels a need, PM me.

So what exactly is the much mentioned concern about vintage aircraft? Is it age alone? Is it serviceability? Is that why this tragic accident occurred? Unlike Hangarshuffle, I hope very much that there will still be future opportunities for aircraft displays to include vintage aircraft.

There may be a need to further regulate displays but it is difficult to see how it is likely to require a different set of rules based on aircraft age. Minimum heights and types of manoeuvre may need to be reconsidered, regardless surely of aircraft age, to maximise safety at the display venue. If any display is flown, any participating aircraft can of course still experience a failure rendering it at worst unflyable, a pilot can make a mistake and a pilot can be incapacitated hence display accidents will still occur on or near the venue.

Hangarshuffle refers to vintage ex mil pilots in a manner which suggests some pre-judgement of them? I stress that this response is not intended to imply anything untoward in relation to yesterday's awful event, but rather to pick up on Hangarshuffle's post.

****e Fonsini do you think we are brain dead or just stupid, Of course the aftermath scenes are going to be dreadful...we don't need to be told.
I've lost too many mates both training and operational flying and a few in display flying as well. I've come to a personal conclusion that, as has already been said, it's time for these super aircraft of our "better" years should operate as the BoB Flight. That is... show off but in undemanding profiles.... we the public will still love it.
I hope the pilot survives and then survives his aftermath and sincerly felt condolences to the families and friends of those who died.

Same here, saw it but no sound. Just as they were announcing the tragedy (everyone was totally silent) and that the displays were suspended immediately, the Sea Vixen turned up and did a lazy orbit with the crash smoke drifting up. Chills down my spine from knowing about the fifties DH.110 break-up at Farnborough.

RIP all those innocent motorists on the A27

Sadly aircraft crash. This occurs irrespective of their height, speed, profile or the age of the aircraft.
I'm intrigued as to which part of the CAP you mention, may have been contravened.
Just in case you are not too sharp,when an aircraft falls out of the sky, the damage/fatalities can be horrific, or nothing. We live in a land with little "open country" so its a lottery.
More people are killed in road accidents every year,,,,,so lets ban private transport!

Aircraft crash
 

Romeo Oscar Golf said " sadly aircraft crash". True. But , in case you're not too sharp ROG, aircraft are more likely to crash when they are deliberately pointed at the ground at low altitude. Like during air displays. Which tend to attract large crowds, which in turn increases the risk of a mass-casualty event. Just sayin'.

You have to wonder about the mentality of people who post the aftermath videos on the internet.

Give the poor souls who died some dignity rather than being a freak show for the ghoulsih.

RIP to those who perished and fingers crossed for those in hospital - with that fireball recoveries could be long and painful.

People have been discussing ejection again, which leads me to a question.

A couple of weeks ago, during the discussions following the Gnat crash and subsequent untimely passing of pilot, Kev Whyman (RIP), it was mentioned that civilian operated fast-jets are unlikely to have a live ejector seat, due to the costs involved in maintaining them, the availability of spare parts (which is a significant problem with vintage aircraft), the costs to insure aircraft with live ejector seats (not to mention, the problem of getting the CAA to approve it in the first place) and the possible lack of access to adequate training facilities to maintain ejection currency.

This was a civilian owned airframe, right? So perhaps the Pilot didn't have the luxury of live firing handles between his legs so couldn't eject after realising the aircraft was doomed, so didn't even attempt to (hence why the canopy didn't jettison).

It has been reported that he once flew Harriers operationally in HMF, so with a good background flying fast-jets, why wouldn't he eject if he was able to?

Maybe he thought he could recover the situation right up to the point of impact, maybe he was suffering some sort of incapacitation, maybe he pulled the handle and nothing happened, or pulled the handle a fraction of a second too late (canopy was open/jettisoning in one image)? Only one person knows the answer, and I'm sure that if he (hopefully) survives his injuries and recovers, all will be revealed, until then, all this second guessing is largely irrelevant and utterly pointless*, at least until the AAIB release any details...

-RP

*In my humble opinion...

Beags,

You mentioned that the loop in the Hunter was flown with 23 deg flap. In some early photos, the jet appears to have flaps deployed. There is, however, a photo (in the DM) that appears to show the aircraft emerging from some trees, nose up, and with the flaps up.

Very sad day.

Edit: On closer inspection, the flaps are still deployed. I didn't realize they were split flaps. Sorry for the post.

Side view
 

This wide angle side view shows the angle of descent, including in the last few seconds an abrupt correction. (in the few frames before it disappears behind the chimney, hard to see on the first viewing)



Mickjoebill

Thanks, LJ.

Barrel rolls have killed several of my colleagues; I hadn't realised that GW was exiting a roll when he ran out of air.

He was a display pilot inasmuch as he was displaying the Hawk, but I don't think that he had flown low-level aeros at any stage before that. Nor do I know how much workup he might have had, but his fellows on BAe Flight Ops were all ex-RAF and I should have thought imbued with the culture of proper preparation.

We were at Valley and Brüggen together, and I think of him often.

McD

A very sad day and my condolences to all involved.
I personally like to see vintage jets flying and to those who say they should not I would ask how old are the Hawks flown by the RAFAT?