I'm not sure what they're supposed to be investigating?

Alfred,

Thank you. I've been saying that for days.

So, which bits of the memo warrants investigation?

As Dagenham rightly reminded us, the Navy already have him so they will be doing some investigation.

We may hear more later, but this is likely to take a while.

How long is this bloke likely to spend in gaol? The days of putting people in the tower and throwing away the key are long gone. You can bet the first thing he will do when he gets out will be to spill his guts to the media outlet that offers him the most money. Perhaps the RN investigation can focus on who are pulling his strings and why and have the information ready to go to embarrass those responsible.

Erm......he has already "spilled his guts"

He's been in the mob about 5 minutes. He knows nothing to spill. Those who think that every time somebody is unhappy there should be a Haddon Cave are insane.

Imagine if you found some bloke in the RAF who said "All the pilots are drunk all the time"

Should this be investigated by a royal commission? Or perhaps should the nutter be ignored......

Sometimes investigations are warranted. Sometimes it is obvious to anybody with a passing knowledge that the problem is the bloke rather than the system.

Quite right.

First, there should be an MoD inquiry. Only if they lie, deceive or deny, like they did on Nimrod, should the public once again push for a "Haddon-Cave" type inquiry.

It is too quickly forgotten how the Nimrod Review was conceived. It was not instigated by MoD. The public gave evidence to the Coroner, who accepted that evidence over MoD's. This forced Des Browne to order the Review.

It could also be said no-one wants another Haddon-Cave anyway. Better an inquiry that identifies the guilty, rather than name and blame the innocent.

I'll clarify.

I'm referring to investigating whether he acted alone or was put up to his actions and by who. Not an investigation into what he is claiming.

dat581:-
heaven forfend! All that time and all that money simply to be told that there is nothing to see here, move along please, we've all got homes to go to...

As tuc says another "Haddon-Cave" would merely reinforce the ties that bind the chums together, with the added irony that the falsehoods created will then be quoted as so much holy script. It would take quite a few good men to break such a conspiracy, men such as the onetime Oxford Coroner. They are very few and very far between.

In the meantime we have nothing to fear except fear itself, so just get on with your work, confident indeed in the judgement of our High Command as to which corners should be cut and how.

Ah, the hobby horse riders of the apocalypse have arrived.........

Tourist:-
Worked well enough in the NHS, didn't it Tourist? No doubt whistle-blowing (or would it be a Bosun's Pipe in this case?) in the MOD is dealt with in a similar manner. You know; blanking, sending to Coventry, career stopping personal report, prosecution under the OSA, or just simple daily persecution.

If only he'd simply tripped and fallen down a ladder (or is it a companion way?) while on board. He could have sued for a 4 or 5 figure sum and we'd all be a bit peed off but not very much. As it is he hasn't made a bean (AFAIK) and is about to experience the wrath of his Service.

Nice phrase by the way, "Hobby Horse Riders of the Apocalypse". Ever thought of a Sub Editor's job at the Sun?

So, I'll ask again, now that usual suspects have turned up - what should be investigated?

I worked in the Radio Centre at Chatham Dockyard after leaving college in the 1960's, Valiant and Warspite were the two nuclear sumarines undergoing refits while I was there.
Amazingly, there are certain hazards to sailing under the surface.
Some key components of the power system used to carry very hot fluids around were susceptible to corrosion.... surprising, that, I mean it's only salty water outside....
End result was a series of 'bodges' to keep outside water at high pressure in the place where it belonged... outside.
High tech gaffer tape was used, Captain was told it would be okay to about 50 feet or thereabouts....
I'm not kidding!!!!
HMS Diamond (destroyer) was sold to a foreign power (African?) and had a bit of a spruce up before departing.... it never arrived as far as I know!
One technician dropped a spanner on deck, and was aghast at its disappearance through a brown biscuit like material covered in grey paint....
There's an aviation link here too, the early radar controlled turrets were a little temperamental, and while tracking an obliging Hunter they resembled a pensioner sans white stick and guide dog. Sort of indecisive and doddery!
1940's technology continued into the 70's and 80's, the four ships we sold to Argentina were not capable of joined up warfare due to a lack of spares... ditto some of the British ships, identical in specification!
Hi fi enthusiasts will know about old fashioned glass cased radio components... made by ancient craftsmen... imagine two rooms of these doing the same job as a mobile phone app.... warm was good sometimes!

Insane.... Ok, let me think....

1. We have had a fair few reports of issues in the fleet for the past number of years........ What does that remind you of?
2. Anything to do with buckets o' sunshine must be super professional..... Oh wasn't there an incident with a b52 and unsafe clearance of weapons for transit....didn't the head of nuclear capability in the usaf get sacked?
3. If we cop a blind un ---- what's the risk.....we loose a lot of professional colleagues and at least 25 per cent of our operating capability.


Yes he might be the idiot of their parish, but like all incident reports, listen, investigate, analyse and recommend... Hard on the facts.....light on the emotion.

Perhaps what should be investigated is how someone with his apparent beliefs, and lack of commitment to the role, ending up serving on an SSBN.

In the same way that, if (and that's always a big if!!) the news is to be believed, the mental state of the crewman involved in this incident

Submariner's grudge turned proud day into tragedy - BBC News

was fairly readily apparent to all.

But you have to be a bit odd to want to be a submariner in the first place;)

He's not a nutter, and he shouldn't be slung in the tower. He's probably pretty disconcerted by what he has recently witnessed. Spilled the beans. Of course whistle blowers always, always are treat as traitors or weasels. But they rarely are. I mean look how the Nazis treat people who spoke out.


In the UK same period, what was the guys name who spoke out about the performance of in particular British tanks in Normandy 1944, against German Panther or Tiger? Stokes? Look how he was treat. He was desperately trying to defend the tank crews.
No something is not right at all about all of this. I've said for several years on these forums that within our tiny yet incredibly active military we should have independent sworn civilian observers. Make it so and the sooner the better.

And what they going to say? Submarines break, people fix them, sometimes **** happens.

Hangar,

I never said he was a "nutter", I questioned whether his apparent beliefs (earlier in this thread somebody said "He states at one point that the time for nuclear deterrence is past and that nuclear weapons should be dismantled" , which I took at face value) were compatible with working on SSBNs.

I referred to the mental state of a seaman in a totally separate incident. However, if you believe the contents of this "bean spillers" report are worth investigating, then you will have read that one of the things he wrote was:

" There have been suicides onboard, and on an A-boat we had a shooter kill his own work colleagues. There were some people that I served with on that patrol, who showed clear psychopathic tendencies".

So it would appear that your whistle blower is in total agreement with my comment of 2 posts back! :=:=:=



A bit less emotion and a bit more accuracy would no doubt help your arguement.

Biggus. Point well made. :ok:

Biggus:-
There at least I am in full agreement. Wouldn't it be a good idea for an independent interrogation of this man to occur so that he can make his case, in order that it can be assessed whether or not there be action required to ensure that the UK Nuclear Deterrent remains viable?

It may well be that no action at all is required as he has fabricated everything, or perhaps some security issues need addressing but otherwise all is well, or perhaps both by land and sea the whole thing is a complete dog's doodah and Very Senior heads must roll.

There, that should do it, don't you think? All we need now is to have an independent investigation and, oh...wait, I think I might have just spotted a slight flaw in my cunning plan.

Ok it's a fair point Courtney and of course I accept the cost implication of any investigation. I have some experience of working at Faslane/Coulport albeit some time ago now, things may well have changed, I accept that. However, from my own experience of back then the claims made regarding general base security rang true. Now, I'm in no way passing judgement on security of weapon storage/movement and handling, but I always saw complaceny in general base security. If my memory serves correctly there have been one or two embarrassing breaches. Sure, mistakes will always be made but what harm could it do to at least review this basic area. Nor do I believe the young man made the allegations with ease - just remember how in the RAF we got handling of such so wrong in the past and how those "whistleblowers" were treated. Not every whistleblower holds a grudge many act with very sincere and brave motives. Time will no doubt tell what we have here.

Tom