There was a time when 5 Os would have done it.
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M2 - and that was the problem that has led us to where we are.
Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force. And that's where the RAF is: fecked' |
Yes: 5 O-Levels, including Maths, English and a science subject, IIRC.
Reading this thread has reminded me that earlier this year I failed to notice the demi-centenary :eek: of my appearance at OASC. Judging from the Fighter Pilot video, little can have changed in the following 14 years. That includes the naivety of the majority of the candidates, myself included! No doubt today's handful of hopefuls are far better briefed, if not more worldly wise, than we were. :cool: |
Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it? As a kid I was "dying to fly fast jets", and perhaps even be an astronaut :\.......ending up doing one but not the other :(. Hidden in the front end of my CV, along with a Science degree, two fast jet tours and a CFS tag is my summer jobs (pre Uni) of working in a factory making lollipops and picking Blackcurrents...I didn't realise doing such menial work made me unworthy :* ........................ |
Ok wiggy, of working in a factory making lollipops
- or being a milkman... You know what they say - "it only takes one goat..." |
It may only have required 5 O-Levels but you could join Direct Entry aged 18 and be on your first squadron aged 20! Would not happen now after years at university and gap years! They must be nearly 30 by the time they reach their first squadron now!:E
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Have a mate who's son is 18, joining next year. Possibly on a Sqn at 20?
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Wiggy said:
Not sure how you work that out I apologise. You make the grade, you make the grade. |
I apologise I don't know if JM posts/visits here, and I haven't seen him in decades so I certainly can't speak for him, but I think the milkman tag became a real and perpetual pain in his **** . Around 5 plus years after the series was aired and during the very early days of our CFS course we trooped along to a "Meet and Greet" with some of the CFS wheels and their wives. Very first comment one of the "Mrs Wheel's" made to John was something along the lines of: "Ah, so you're the milkman". Poor b*******. |
Some of us have flown fast jets then become a milkman (briefly!). I thought of John every morning when I fired up the float.
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Have a mate who's son is 18, joining next year. Possibly on a Sqn at 20? |
Comment.
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I didn't see the programme at the time but I was made aware of it when I was working at Barkston Heath at various times in the period 2010-13. JM was a QFI there at the time and I had many an enjoyable break in the crew room with JM discussing past events as only ancient aircrew can. I have looked on U Tube and it certainly brings back memories.
I was a 5 O Level direct entry Nav. In at 17 on the squadron at 19, 3 tours and out after 8 years. I was talking to a young Flt Lt at Coningsby last year and he had been holding there and was just on his was to Valley for the FJ course. I think he said he had been in > 5 years. I also note I was commissioned at 17; tempus fugit. |
Well, I have never had O-level maths, made Pilot with CSE grade1 Maths.:ok:
OAP |
Well, why not a milkman - it's the early bird that catches the worm !
And do not forget: ♫...Ernie, the fastest milkman in the west...♫ Good training for a FJ. D. |
Perhaps they should have made the milkman into a Creamie?
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Holds are not all bad. Think why there are holds.
The system predicts, not too accurately, the number of trained bods required on the front line. The establishment for the OCUs is based on intake, expected wash out to give the right output. Now if the board at OASC gets a higher than norm success in good recruits who pass IOT with less than the normal failure rate, who then pass the flying training it is inevitable that there will be a holdup somewhere in the system. Decades ago the output of 2 ANS exceeded the capacity of 1 ANS to cope. On our course of 18, 16 were back coursed after the first 4 weeks. The course ahead of us similarly 'lost' 14 back to our original course and so on. Holds may be frustrating but they do suggest superior selection and instruction provided the washout rate in OCUs does not rise. |
PN: I don't believe our holds are caused by an excess of quality pilots passing but are bottlenecks resulting from aircraft unserviceabilities (such as Tutor props falling off). The flying training system can't cope so trainees sit around idle waiting for a slot.
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Ken, I said
The system predicts, not too accurately, the number of trained bods required on the front line. |
The 'system' also made 120 pilots, some already with their wings, across the whole of FT redundant then a few years later invited them to come back in as the RAF needed them. Rather amazingly after such a lesson in loyalty a few accepted. I would suggest that the 'system' is even less able to predict its needs than you suggest!
('System': aka a group of seemingly otherwise intelligent senior officers who collectively couldn't organise the proverbial high spirited drinks party in a factory for the manufacture of alcoholic beverages). |
Ken, you know why it happened and you know it was not a military decision.
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott
The 'system' also made 120 pilots, some already with their wings, across the whole of FT redundant then a few years later invited them to come back in as the RAF needed them. Rather amazingly after such a lesson in loyalty a few accepted. I would suggest that the 'system' is even less able to predict its needs than you suggest!
Happy to explain further if it would help. |
Pr00ne. No he was more the quiet Jeremy Corbyn type. Now that was 3 quid well spent. I wouldn't court providence over your 3 sheckels just yet, all you've done thus far is help Groucho Marx (I just can't think of him any other way after his turn out in that ill-fitting garb at the state munch the other night) along one more step to becoming Prime Minister and.... who knows, perhaps Diane Abbot could end up as Defence Secretary once he's got the keys to No. 10. It could happen, a lesson we should all have hoisted aboard given the curious twists, turns and surprises served up from the Great British electorate recently. pr00ne, Jeremy Groucho Corbyn Marx, is the same nice person who described those who from H.M. Forces participated in the Falklands War as 'unemployed men' at the time. Whatever your mindset regarding warfare and the justification for it on each occasion, this was a most telling comment from a man who presumes to accept the office, one day, which accepts the defence and security of the United Kingdom and its citizens/subjects at home and abroad as the first duty. It will be interesting to see if he feels it appropriate to rely on any number of 'unemployed men' in order to maintain this. FB:) |
On a Sqn by age 20 - you have to be joking of course. Son of a friend has spent the last 5 years, holding, flying training, holding, Valley, holding, holding, scuba diving, climbing, yachting, leave, holding, waiting to go to Sqn only now! Already planning BA application!
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Already planning BA application? Thought that was the norm now before even going to the careers office.
Sign your life away for 12 years hence and a couple of thousand flying hours to either BA or Beardy Branson. They get semi trained starboard observers and you get a half pension and a job post RAF without having to lift a finger. |
Already planning BA application? Thought that was the norm now before even going to the careers office. Sign your life away for 12 years hence and a couple of thousand flying hours to either BA or Beardy Branson. They get semi trained starboard observers and you get a half pension and a job post RAF without having to lift a finger. Already planning to cut them loose after 12 years with nothing but a preserved pension? That's our plan isn't it? After all, we don't really have the resources or the leadership to offer 'careers' any more, do we? We'll save a tonne of dosh on lower pensions which the boys and girls can top up with Serco or the airlines. Hardly need to lift a finger. Result! Wars- oh we can manage the odd skirmish- the Airships assure us we can. CG:ok: |
Dream Sheet
Tlightb
Whatever happened to "1st choice, Astronaut, Stockton-On-Tees" |
Dream Sheet.
Brilliant memory D. It was actually Stoke-on-Trent. Didn't make it, went to work in New York instead.
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1.3V Stall,
Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force. And that's where the RAF is: fecked' Very few Direct Entrants ever had aspirations to become Air Ranked Officers. Most would have been content to become a Squadron Commander and/or leave for pastures new. |
Finningly Boy.
Firstly, I obviously have more confidence in the British electorate than do you, although probably not much. Secondly, rather than putting JC in No 10 and totally destroying the whole country, we may have prevented one of the other clowns standing for the leadership creeping in if DC and his mates screw up, which they undoubtedly will. Dominator 2. Spot on! I was DE with the required "5" then got PC on promotion, climbed well up the greasy pole, banked 5000 hrs (not 1 in an aeroplane with either a toilet or cooker) and left for pastures new with a reasonable pension and my integrity intact. |
SamXXV - how "south", how "west"?
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Courtenay: that the training system was struggling for capacity is indicative of how it has been run down in recent years. That too many pilots, many of who were close to completing their lengthy & expensive training, were let go is shown by there being insufficient to man current & planned fleets let alone if there is a P8 buy in SDSR. There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained, are now manned mostly by a (small) number of FTRS instructors. This will only get worse once MFTS comes in. It can't all be blamed on the last SDSR & politicians.
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Ken Scott, much as I predicted 12 years ago....:ugh:
And who will replace the ageing FTRS UAS QFIs......:confused: Classic short termism - whichever fools were responsible should hang their heads in everlasting shame. But they won't, of course.....:uhoh: |
Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it? And I fully expect flak for that sentence. Sorry if that makes me a "foaming at the mouth right-wing type." :( |
1.3 wrote
M2 - and that was the problem that has led us to where we are. Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force. And that's where the RAF is: fecked' Are you saying that he entire RAF training system is based on 'a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination'? I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow. |
"I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow."
That's why they gave them their own brevet! |
Originally Posted by Ken Scott
There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained, are now manned mostly by a (small) number of FTRS instructors. This will only get worse once MFTS comes in.
As for SDSR, no, of course is wasn't the only issue, but it was probably the final straw. Before that, the training system also suffered from various reorganisations that failed to streamline the pipeline. Things became steadily worse as we went from BFTS(s) + AFTS + TWU(s) to Mirror Image to Valley, with some EFTS stuff thrown in. Every change seemed to live up to expectations by progressively degrading a formerly working system. By around 2005, the PTC guys were working flat out just to keep things moving, but struggling even to break even. Contractorized eng support at Valley was good enough, but lacked the flexibility to allow them to catch up. So things just steadily got worse. They even tried reducing the syllabi, but that just transferred risk to the OCUs (and eventually to the front line) where we could least afford it. The Harrier guys were having serious IPS issues, which were then compounded when the big push came to build up the Typhoon Force; the later delays in that programme meant that the Typhoon OCU had to have the pick of the crop because just one student lost at OCU would have caused the planned stand-up to fail. Politics could not allow that to happen, apparently. |
The future for flying training in the RAF (and other services) does indeed look rather bleak. With MFTS presumably intending to employ mostly ex-mil instructors but the RAF not training so many once it no longer has need where will Ascent find its people in the future? If the RAF is going to bolster MFTS with its own QFIs where is the saving from contractorization going to come when Ascent will be utilising our airfields? Paying a third party to lease ac on our behalf cannot be cheaper than leasing them ourselves once profit margin is taken into account.
I'm left with the feeling that the sole purpose of MFTS is to provide SOs with employment once they retire. When I joined up we prided ourselves that although our equipment might not be as good as the Spams ('all the gear, no idea') our training system & our crews were first class. Whether that was ever true is open to debate but we certainly cannot claim that our training is the best nor will it be under MFTS. I'm not convinced it will even be value for money & once we can no longer provide our own training .....? Perhaps the expectation is that it will all be RPAS by then so we needn't worry but the Duncan Sandys' School of Prophecy has been wrong before. |
We used to sell training to overseas air forces. Now that a contractor is delivering the training, time to cut out the agent and contract with the contractor directly.
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There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained I think most of the audience here have a good grasp of how elementary instruction is delivered, but there are perhaps fewer that appreciate how modern multi-engine pilot conversion is achieved. Students are taught in pairs in a flight simulator; there is no "demo" or "follow-me through" teaching, unless the student does not achieve competence. The on-aircraft training is (or should) be no-more than a validation of skills acquired in the FSTD. A background in elementary flying instruction may well be useful, but isn't a pre-requisite for successful delivery of a type-conversion training. |
I don't think that is the case, Brian. It's just that the FTSs used to be a fantastic source of QFIs for the OCUs and Front Line Sqns. QFIs that had a good background in instruction.
Now, the other side of the coin - you know I can only talk about mil FJ training. When moving to the F-15, I did a 3 month TX (short conversion course) followed by a 3 month instructor upgrade after which I taught ab initio students everything from trip one in the jet to AAR to combat to IF to... You get the idea. And I am not, nor ever have been, a QFI. The system seems to work. The snag for the RAF is that CFS still insists that only QFIs can do certain sorties, but there is no longer the capacity to produce them. So therein lies the problem; a system that requires something that the system can no longer produce in sufficient numbers. |
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