I believe that somewhere in the film giving the background to the flight it is mentioned that "most" of the pilots are ex military. :)

Apparently the laws of basic geometry were different in the formations you flew in. Sit in almost any airliner cockpit and look up 30 degress at your 9 o'clock. Without an eyebrow window you see........nothing.

"Expensive?" An eyebrow window is expensive? Numerous tactical airlifters from the little C-27 to the big C-17 and most everything in between have eyebrow windows. LACK of an eyebrow window could be very expensive indeed if it results in two aircraft trying to occupy the same point in airspace at the same time. Nature has a very nasty way of resolving that impossibility.

Indeed, and that's why in a large tactical formation it is critical to be able to SEE the airplane you are formating on.

Indeed there is, friend of a friend of mine. She got bored with flying the 757 for BA...

Not sure how you flew formation Ken, but in all the large aircraft formations I've flown I haven't needed to look up 30 degrees whilst I'm in formation. If I did I would have been well out of position. This is close formation we are talking about.

When you are in a 30 degree bank, the horizon is 30 degrees "up" in your cockpit. If the aircraft you are formating on is next to you (i.e. on the horizon at your 9 to 10 o'clock) you cannot see him. Or are you saying you always made flat turns while in formation? Or made no turns at all?

Just been having a chat with the off-spring - all the pilots in the formation were ex-military fast-jet as are most but not all Airbus TPs. One German ex-mil turned down the offer, as being ex-Atlantics IIRC thought it wasn't his thing. I gather all the experimental TPs are ex fast-jet.


There is a lady at Airbus who is ex-BA and paid for her course at Boscombe, he said.

No Ken, when the lead aircraft is in a 30 bank turn I stay in formation position, the horizon is irrelevant to me as my leader is my horizon and I am in exactly the same position as I was in when the lead was straight and level. Now of course if I had done a flat turn I would lose sight of the lead.

KenV, with respect I think you are mixing the different types of formation,and manoeuvres within those formations.
Close Formation- like the T`Birds,Arrows,PdeFrance etc; you use references such as wingtip/nose/rudder to give you spacing and position,and you hold that `picture` following the leader`s every move.that `picture should stay in it`s relative position irrespective of whether you are in a turn,level,rolling or looping.
Tactical- a much broader /longer gap between aircraft,and usually done in sections seperated by maybe a couple of miles.This allows full freedom of movement of each aircraft to manoeuvre/checking for hostiles and avoiding,and using natural features for cover/radar shadow.
SKE- usually a long stream of aircraft,but may be in sections spaced by both timing/distance/bearing from the Lead aircraft; usually used to airdrop paras/loads/equipment etc over a specified L/DZ.When lead turns ,you fly to that position ,then turn,otherwise it looks like `ballroom dancing`...
In a multi/large aircraft in `echelon`,and going for a `break`,it is fair game to let the pilot on the `break` side do it,as he can see the preceding aircraft and control the roll and pull,keeping the other aircraft `on the horizon`...

I agree Wander00, goodwill to all men.:ok: However, it disappointing that open, and informed comment by myself, is treated with such contempt by someone who, if you read his posts, merely inserts his view or taunt, without adding any information or merit to the discussion.
Just my opinion!

OAP

sycamore: Believe me, a "Heavy" aircraft break is a dangerous manoeuvre! You will often become unsighted on all other formation members, until you roll-out downwind, unless you limit it to about 5degrees AOB!:eek: That said, it was done regularly.:ok:

OAP

Not quite several hundred tons, and much more fighter-like than any other airliner, but, BA flew 4 of it's Concordes in formation back in the 1980's to celebrate 10 years service.
A good friend of mine was a BA employee at the time and was in one of them for the flight (BA drew staff numbers out of a hat to fill the four a/c and he was one of the lucky ones).
He said the best bit was when they rolled away in the formation break :ok:

http://www.concordesst.com/pictures/4concordes1.jpg

OAP, I know ,I flew #4 in the `Green Barrows`...wall-to-wall aloominum and Hamilton Standards....

On the subject of large aircraft "breaks", there is of course the problem of runway occupancy, something which tends to lead to long intervals between the split and, extended downwind legs-into the next County!:oh:

OAP

GeeRam. A great picture of a great aircraft!
Perhaps some contributors might guess which RAF aircraft carried all the BA guest passengers on the last "Concorde QBF" (when passengers were not allowed to fly in the BA Concorde!)?:O

OAP

KenV - why don't you get hold of a couple of toy a/c and practice some formation? Even just use your hands. Then you'll see!

OAP - as you say - the only safe way to break ANY formation really is to brief bank angles and g for the break.

Roland Pulfrew, when we first flew formation in the VC10K back in 1984, the brief was to fly 'flat' in echelon in any turn away from echelon. So if you were in echelon right, a left turn would require a flat turn.

Quite where this daftness originated, I don't know. But as we had several ex-FJ folk on the course, as one we called "Bolleaux to this!" and from then on flew all turns exactly as we had in any other RAF aircraft. Had we flown 3 aircraft in echelon, perhaps a flat turn would have been necessary, but not for routine pairs formation.

In that A350 formation, it looked to me that the crew was looking up and out to confirm that they were adequately spaced during a formation break - not to maintain close formation.

Onceapilot, close formation breaks were part of the basic VC10K course and certainly weren't dangerous. They were fully briefed and flown to an SOP. The only 'dangerous' event I recall was when a pair of VC10Ks was breaking left on RW09 at Brize and some JATE C-130 cowboy decided to barge into the circuit between them from a downwind join.... Fortunately the no.2 spotted it and delayed his break accordingly.

Although not a large aircraft, the HS125 cockpit layout means that it displays many of the difficulties mentioned when trying to conduct formation flying. We gained a wealth of experience in formation flying while operating the 200 Series for over 43 years. One thing that has not been mentioned is where the handling pilot should sit. It was found that it was always better for the handling pilot to be in the seat closest to the lead, ie echelon left sit in right hand seat. I was quite content to be right hand seat captain and handling pilot.
I know that some of our “God Given” QFIs said that they were happy to fly cross cockpit, however, few could perform as well as they thought. The general trend would be to drift wide and ruin the shape of the formation. Cross cockpit could also lead to high excitement if one were to get out of position and then the leader started an unexpected turn. Cross cockpit flying permits a far shorter time before one is “lost lead”.
Flat turns require a lot of practice and allow little margin for error when flown in the correct position. A loose flat turn may be employed, however, lead/lag and rate of closure have to be understood. One may suggest that echelon turns of more than 2 large aircraft needs a smooth leader and a lot of practice.
I was amused by the suggestion that Fast Jet TPs would be great at close formation. I have witnessed a few would are very mediocre, particularly when conducting AAR. There are many line pilots flying various models of Airbus who have far greater formation handling skills.

Yes Beags, perhaps "dangerous" is a little emotive in a professional forum. "a high level of inherent risk" could be a better definition.:)

OAP

There is at least one civvy self sponsored ETP. I met her at a GAPAN do a couple of years ago. Very impressive she was too.

She is just doing acceptance flights at Airbus - which some people call test flights. She wouldn't have been called for the display of the 350s ....
ETPS - a private business now with Qinetiq - is offering abbreviated tailor-made courses (one or thwo months) for production factory pilots. Not much to do with the full one-year TP course - but even after a two-days course, you can get from them the badge and keys Handler....

Being a woman she had some rules being relaxed for her, as is often the case.

Wow.

Just wow................

I wouldn't crawl over her cv to get to yours recce........

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46779...endeavour.html

EXACTLY!! and if you cannot see your lead, you cannot see your horizon. If in straight and level flight your lead is at your 9-10 O'clock at the same altitude and you both bank 30 degrees and both maintain altitude (meaning you cannot climb to stay on your lead's roll axis) you will not be able to see your lead unless you have an eyebrow window. Tactical airdrop formations in an airlifter are very different than formations in fighters.

Tourist,

Thanks for the link, that does confirm what I wrote (and already knew) :
that she is a Cat B Test Pilot (different from a Cat A Experimental Test Pilot)
( .. to command inside the enveloppe..) so definitely no flypast. There is a hierarchy to stick to.

Prior to EASA enforcement, they were simply not called Test Pilots. You have excellent threads on that subject in the "Flight Testing" forum here

Regarding CVs ... you would be surprised. But who cares ? only written material is of some importance on pprune

I am talking about a tactical formation in airlifters with a longer gap between aircraft, but not separated by miles. When the formation turns, the guy on the outside of the turn cannot climb to stay aligned with the lead's roll axis. He stays at the same altitude while rolling with the lead and speeds up to maintain his position relative to the lead. Think of it as a turn in 2 dimensions rather than 3. Based on what I read here, you guys would call it a "flat" turn. Formation flat turns are routine in airlifters. And it requires that you have eyebrow windows, and that is exactly why the vast majority of tactical airlifters have eyebrow windows. I'm just wondering how the A400 gets by without them.

Good idea! Now try this:

Place both hands on a table top, side by side. Now raise both hands 3 inches above the table top. Lead is your left hand. "Roll" both hands 30 degrees to the left while keeping the centerline of both hands 3 inches above the table top. Without an eyeborw window, how does the pilot flying your right hand see his lead who is flying your left hand?

Did that help?

KenV, correct! Low-level tactical formations, either by fast jet or tactical airdrop formations, are flown in an entirely different manner to close formation.

Close formation flat turns are rather more difficult than close formation turns in vic or echelon. As a sprog Hunter pilot, I well recall being No.3 of a 5-ship flat turn through initials at 500ft and 420KIAS running in to RAF Brawdy for the 25th Hunter anniversary flypast - muttering "Do NOT cock this up!" to myself!

As for 'test pilot' definitions, the lady in question certainly is an outstanding ETPS graduate and a TP in the full meaning of the term. That she currently conducts flight tests within the aircraft's allowable flight envelope isn't particularly relevant - one day she might well be in command of an 'A3n0' on its first ever flight!

I used to fly post-maintenance air tests on the VC10K, which had the odd 'exciting moment'. Although some of the test points were outside normal squadron pilots' limits, such as high IAS, high IMN and low IAS handling, that didn't require a 'TP' endorsement, hence we used the term 'air test' pilot.

- in a word, no:) How do you turn 'your' formation to the right? How much close formation flying HAVE you done?

Here's a clue - a close formation turn. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...HtxCuJrB5ri618

BEagle

one day she might well be in command of an 'A3n0' on its first ever flight!

Absolutely no way - as she is only a CAT B Test Pilot, with a somewhat light background compared to other TP in that business. But you might be right - with some affirmative action, everything is possible. By the way, I'm very impressed that she did re-mortaged her house to pay for the Course... which does prove again that money was a requirement for her to start this (abbreviated) Course.

..hence we used the term 'air test' pilot.. You could call yourself what you want, between yourselves ....

Regarding the discussion about close formation, could all the ones never having done any of it leave the room, please ?

Regarding the cockpit field of view of the A400, that's the one of the mythic Transall, so it should do the job ...

Apparently you've not done low level tactical formations in large aircraft where what you folks call "flat" turns are required.

A right turn is done exactly the same way as a left turn (mostly). The airplane on the inside of the turn is always the lead. This is very different than typical fast jet formation flying and takes a lot of coordination. Now let me explain the "mostly" part. Since in big airplanes the pilots sit side-by-side, the pilot in control of the aircraft often has to swap when making right vs left turns because it's very difficult (or impossible) to do cross-cockpit formation turns. It takes a LOT of crew coordination to do formation flying right in big airplanes.

Plenty. Started out flying close formation in T-28s and have flown close formation in several different airframes, including A-4, F/A-18, T-38/F-5, and others. But that is NOT what I'm talking about. Formation flying in large formations of large aircraft is COMPLETELY different.

And about that picture of F-16s you provided, that is NOT what is being discussed here.
Take a look at this picture of a large formation of C-17s. Making formation turns in such a formation is VERY diffent than making turns in a close formation of fighters.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._formation.jpg

er.......Ken - this is the formation we are all talking about - not sure which one you are on about. I will be most impressed if you can flat turn this...........:eek:. You may not get the job of lead, though.....

Cue loud plastic banging noises?

Your C17 pic was known in the RAF as 'same way, same day':)

Yup, and did you see them make any kind of formation turns while in that formation? Is it even possible to make a close formation turn with large jets in such a formation? The only turns I saw were done by individual aircraft turning AWAY from the rest of the formation and not by the formation as a whole.

If you've seen a video of these A350s making a formation turn, can you provide the link?

Well..................... 0:43 and 1:33? - your move.

Not exactly Ken, you've completely missed the point. I'm talking close formation here, just like in the video. In all the large aircraft formation I've done I stay in formation, so when my leader rolls left or right I climb or descend slightly so that I can maintain IN FORMATION. Simples!

Look at the video again. At 0:43 the "formation turn" is an illusion caused by the photo aircraft maneuvering, not the formation of A350s.

At 1:33 on my screen it was really hard to see what was going on. But from what little I could see, it was another case of the photo bird maneuvering rather than the formation.

The operative word in your phrase "I climb or descend slightly" is "slightly". In a large formation of large aircraft the "climb or descend" cannot be "slightly". If the airdrop formation is 1000 feet (or less) above the ground in a formation of four C-17s, the bottom C-17 ends up trying to "descend" below ground level. Nature has a nasty way of resolving the conflict between granite and aluminum. That's why in those formations, the formation turns are done flat.

VERY cool, well done Airbus.......:D

Ken, You are both talking at cross purposes. Yes in tactical formations level turns are ofter done but you are NOT in close formation.
Even in close it can get scary if the leader is a plonker. I flew a mixed C130, 2xKingAir and 2xHS125 formation. The HS125s were on the outside of a big Vic. When the lead C130 ended up at 250ft agl (due to being on the wrong pressure setting) and then went into a 30 deg turn - guess what height the inside HS125 was at. When you get squeezed between aircraft and the rocks it is not too great!!
There is more to mixing different ac types and pilots from different roles and backgrounds than meets the eye. Assumed knowledge can be very dangerous.

But we aren't talking about tactical low level formations Ken, we are talking about flying close formation in large aircraft. Looking at your list of "I've flown close formation in" there doesn't appear to be any large aircraft, so I'm not sure you are qualified to comment. Flying close formation in any aircraft means the wing men manoeuvre in height in a turn and that doesn't matter whether you are in a fast jet, small multi or large multi - the techniques are the same! Take it from someone who has flown close formation against a large number of different types.

Oh and I have been the guy placed on the inside of a turn at low level and finding the surface a little closer than I would have wished. The lead was a Bear Foxtrot on that occasion though. :ok:

Close formation at 250ft agl

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130132...3/15875246278/

No cross cockpit flying here. However, we did not barrel roll.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130132...3/15875403790/