"I know you've PVR'd, but any chance you can stay on a bit longer ?"
"As in, you'd like to retain me for a couple of months ?"
"Yes"
"Would I get my retention pay back ?"
"Probably not"
"There's your answer then" ;)

I probably sign on average about twenty to thirty entries per day that are legal documents and for which I can recieve a custodial sentence, I can also recieve a custodial sentence for missing items that I should have checked and signed for.

How many individual packages of Dangerous Goods do you think go into a 12m ISO container, or on board an aircraft; each one covered by the declarations we have to sign off. Mate - this isn't about who's cleverer than who; I suffered a similar situation to you guys when a particular SO wanted to reward his favourite trade and needed to dumb-down another to balance his budget. It's about money, always has been, always will. Personally, I reckon those guys got a bum deal, but unless the country wins the next Euro-Lottery, it won't change until the public implications of them not changing it, outweigh those that do. I sincerely hope you get what you aspire to.

Isn't it extremely sad that this thread has become about the relative importance of various trades...this is exactly the problem that is crippling the RAF now.

It's surely not about how any trade relates to each other, but how every trade relates to the outside world.

You can't hold an entire force for this many years' pay freeze, in the face of inflation and CPI/RPI increases and not expect a backlash...the civilian world is at least still attempting to maintain parity.

At the same time, manning 'restraint' in many trades has made them appear less effective - that's not an indictment about the effort of those remaining, more a statement on wider manning structure (or lack of).

About 30 years ago, IIRC, there was an increase in flying training requirements as Tornado entered service. We had 3 TWUs going full tilt and several QFIs were posted back from their operational squadrons to augment the training system's increased need.

Then, 22 years ago, it went the other way when a few of us on QFI tours were detached back to operational flying for GW1.

In both cases there was sufficient capacity in the system to cope with such demands; moreover, there were sufficient aerodromes, QFIs and aircraft to cope with any future surge demand.

But since then it's been cut after cut, plus the creeping cancer of contractorisation. I wonder how any expansion in times of national need could be accomplished should the need arise - a recent trawl has been conducted to establish whether there are pilots in non-flying appointments who could be released back to the front line. I'd been intrigued to know whether many were identified.

And that's just pilots! If the UK were ever to get back into the ASW game, how on earth could sufficient experienced rear crew be trained to operate the aircraft effectively.

'Manning' is not just about whether one trade should receive higher salary levels than another; neither should it a sticking plaster business which patches over the damage without treating the cause.

So the RAF is back over Iraq yet again and it could be for 'weeks if not months'. How will that work, given the effect on retention caused by recent operations with decreasing asset levels? One squadron commander told me that he didn't think that any of his pilots would be staying in - and his groundcrews were of a similar mind.

Anyway, good luck to those still serving; I just hope that the politicians have finally learned to ensure that their desert adventurism can be backed by adequate resources - unlike that little toad Bliar.

The other issue regarding technical and non-technical trades is the extra two ranks they have go through, SAC(T) and Chf Tech. Especially considering that when promoted from Sgt there isn't the offer of extesion to age 55, ( LoS 35 under the NEM).

The average length of time to reach FS for non-technical trades is 22 years, for technical trades this increases to 27.5 years.

The extra time spent in training for technical trades simply doesn't make it an attractive option especially when they are paid the same.

Gentlemen, read the proposed new employment / pension proposals, they are terrible IMO! Normal FULL "career", 18/40, less than 2% extended to age 60, average-pay pension rate, 1/47 accrual but, NO LUMP SUM unless you commute @ £1 to £12, No immediate pension till age 65,66,67,68,?? etc.... Oh yes, NO JOB SECURITY! No enhanced redundancy rights, you can be kissed of at any time.:(
DC was on about difficult Military times ahead !!

OAP

Whenurhappy, It will certainly not help you and your move but I recently attended a series of meetings at PJHQ where this is considerable effort being expended to assist those pers moving to/from overseas. They are looking at everything from the information piece, to AO release dates, to streamlining regulations et al. The Gp Capt leading the work is determined to make sure that our people are better supported - thye days of being able to ask someone what they need to do with their car when posted to Bruggen are long gone and this is recognised.

I left in Tranch 1 of the latest round of redundancies (by choice, if they'd have said no i'd have PVR'd but the extra cash was a bonus) one of the reasons i left was the pay and conditions and all the crap in the last 10 years. I'd been posted back from overseas (Cyprus to Kinloss) and within 3 weeks told i was posted again on promotion (Marham) as they job they had lined up for me had been taken by someone else. Then they said i could have stayed overseas but they decided to post me back to be near my kids then tried sending me to Marham when my kids are in the north of Scotland! It took about 6 weeks to arrange a move to a gapped post at Kinloss i could take up thanks to my FS who knew about it - manning denied it existed!
I was then pinged for MPA - as a Chef in the Officers Mess which was a great job for TG 1 Sooty/Rigger.

Overall i'd had enough of the BS i'd seen over 23 years, contractorisation, reductions in manpower leading to increased workload, multiskilling despite what they said being used to reduce manpower and seeing lots of other trades getting nice pay rises and moves to the higher band to aid retention. Yes we were already on the higher band so had nowhere to move but it's been said before (i said it to some MOD folks who visited Kinloss to 'gauge morale') there isnt a company in Civvy street that pays HR, Stores, Drivers and Engineers the same wage. Yes there are some jobs where the pay is up there (if you have the relevant quals) but the majority of them are lower paid. The Techies feel undervalued.

I work in aberdeen now for a big Oil and Gas Service Company and i can assure you unless you're the head of HR you earn a max of £28,000, Stores guys are on about the same and i don't think the ladies and guy in the canteen aren't on a great wage. Engineers get decidedly more.

The money isn't the whole story but when you lump it in with everything else we all have/had to put up with it's another straw on the camels back when you can earn more outside.

It seems the attitude of entitlement by Engineering personnel is common to both the RN and RAF.

From the BBC:

Shortfall? What shortfall?

And that's just the ladies...

eye thank you.

Doobry firkin, not sure where you are looking for shiney, stacker or chef jobs in Aberdeen, however these tell a different story.

Chef Manager - Off Shore (25354150) - reed.co.uk

HR Manager - Carlton Resource Solutions - Oil Careers

HR Business Partner (Recruitment, Human Resources) BLUH12606 (25336518) - reed.co.uk

Supply Chain Manager - Michael Page International Recruitment Ltd - Oil Careers

Adminblunty (ex snco shiney, now earning over twice what I'd did in the RAF in 2008)

All of these jobs quoted are Management/partner/offshore, all of which are in the oil/ wind turbine industry which we all know pay very, very well. The main thread has been about shop floor tradesmen in 'normal' employment/ base maintenance where engineers are normally the top paid employees, discounting management of course.
I asked how many other trades where signing legal documents every working day, you have come up with 2 so far, out of how many trades.

Looking at the job adverts then you need to read them very carefully:

Chef Manager is paying way higher than usual as it is an offshore post where the individual will be living on a rig...

The HR Manager needs to have post-grad Masters level education - not your average scribbly...

The HR "Partner". In business a "partner" is someone who operates at Board level and would equate in our rank terms to roughly 1 or 2 star - not your average SNCO or JO...

The Supply Chain Manager pay is about right for this industry. As I said before, stackers do carry more responsibility than scribblies, but less than techies. You can bet that a techie working for the same company at the same managerial level is earning 10-20% more...

Just my two-penneth...

LJ :ok:

Just sandblast them off. Problem solved!

Acmech1954

TG4 sign exactly the same legally binding maintenance docs that TG1 do, and have direct flight safety responsibilities wrt servicing navaids.

4everAD,

That is the point of my previous posts. Times have changed. There are examples in most trades where responsibilities have increased.
As those who know, the JSJET has to take a certain percentage in each trade and rank to make a judgement, it is not a straightforward system.
It is more complicated by the increasing amount of out of trade posts. QCIT as an example, which is filled predominately by engineering pers. Same pay for doing same job?

or angle grind them...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT821sbQlUQ