Flying losses; training vs combat
 

Having just heard figures quoted for RFC/RNAS losses during WW 1 of 8,000 killed in training versus 6,000 in combat I'd be interested to hear a) is this accurate. And b) how does it compare with subsequent conflicts?

ShotOne, you ask a great question, once again. I don't know if anyone will have the figures in their head, but I'm sure there is some research going on.now.

All I can tell you is what I think. The ratio might not be that different. But that really is just a snap guess after reading your post. I look forward to better informed answers.

I seem to recall there was a thread on this a few months back. Can't seem to find now though. :sad:

Bob C

Think this was the thread. Quotes the same figures.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...raining+losses

Bob C

flying training in 1918
 

I found the details below in the Australian Archives Service Records for an AFC pilot. I first posted this in 2011.


If you wanted to be a pilot in 1918, this is what you had to do....(I am unsure of the name of the first acft named "Avro Leabone??"

And this man was off to the Western Front after graduation with 34 hours in the logbook.

TO GRADUATE “A” A PUPIL MUST HAVE :-

1. Undergone instruction at a school of Aeronautics.

2. Completed twenty five hours solo and dual.

3. Attained Flying Standard “V” on an elementary machine.

4. Flown a Graduation Aeroplane satisfactorily.

5. Climbed to 10,000 feet, remained there for at least 15 minutes, after which he will land with his engine stopped, the aeroplane first touching the ground and coming to a halt within a marked circle 150 yards in diameter.

6. Passed following tests :-
(a) Formation Flying Satisfactorily maintained his position in formation flights for a total of Four (4) hours in formation (to include a minimum of three (3) separate flights).
(b) Forced Landings Four forced landings in fields not forming part of Aerodrome.
(c) Cloud Flying While taking full control of machine remained Three (3) minutes in clouds with instructor
(d) Aerial Gunnery While diving at a ground target taken two successful photographs of the target from 1,500 foot or under.
(e) Prop swinging (this was handwritten)



(X) FLYING STANDARD “ V “

Can fly his machine accurately and can land consistently well at slow speeds, tail down,
Can, in addition, carry out the following manoeuvres with absolute confidence and accuracy on an elementary machine :-
1. Three sustained turns in each direction, with and without engine – bank to be 45 degs. or over.
2. Sharp figures of eight, Climbing turns to left and right,
3. Stall the machine with and without engine,
4. Sideslip in either direction and land off a sideslip,
5. Spin, half roll and loop (Avro’s and A, V’s only),
6. Confident and reliable in clouds, in rough weather or on a forced landing. Understands the theory ot landing across wind.

Certified that ( Cadet Named ) has passed
Category “A” and is fit to graduate
Date: 21.6.18 Instructor



REPORT ON AN OFFICER WHO HAS UNDERGONE A COURSE OF INSTRUCTION

No 8 T’ing Squadron Royal Air Force

YEAR: 1918

PERIOD OF COURSE: 4th May 1918 - 21st June 1918

DATE OF GRADUATION: 21.6.18

NAME AND RANK: Cadet (named)

REGIMENT: Headquarters 1st Australian Division

TYPES OF MACHINES FLOWN) Avro Leabone (?) )
AND ABILITY IN THEM ) Avro Mono )
Sop. Scout ) Good.

CROSS COUNTRY FLYING:- Good

MECHANICAL KNOWLEDGE:- Fair

DATE OF PASSING EXAMINATION “A”:- Oxford 7.2.18
Reading...........

Date joined squadron
For higher instruction:- 21.6.18

TIME IN AIR Hrs Mins
(i) During higher instruction. 34 10
(ii) Total solo since commencing tuition. 20 0
(iii) Total dual since commencement of tuition 14 10
Total 34 10
Qualities as an Officer

will make a good officer

Shows considerable promise. Will make a good scout pilot

Place Leighterton(*?) Gloster Commanding......Squadron
Date 25.6.18 Australian Flying Corps

Headquarters
No 7 Group
Royal Air Force

- Forwarded –
Place.....................
Date...................... Commanding 1st Wing
Australian Flying Corps

A google search gives another thread here from 3 years ago which has this stat from the US:

276,00 aircraft manufactured in the US. 43,000 planes lost overseas, including 23,000 in combat. 14,000 lost in the continental U.S.

So of 57k lost only 23k combat. Casualties probably similar, out of combat loses much higher than combat from what I have read. Even higher if you take account of losses on combat sorties that were not due to combat. Those 23k would have included a high percentage with nothing to do with enemy action.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...stics-ww2.html

The Avro Trainer is most likely to have been an Avro 504. These were fitted with a variety of engines, so the 'Leabone' may in fact be 'Le Rhône', to differentiate it from the Gnome or Clerget powered 504.

From the Coates Collection Avro 504K B7103:

http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac...4K%20B7103.jpg


Leighterton is in Gloucestershire. More info here: http://www.airfieldinformationexchan...68-Leighterton

An aerial view can be found here, as can pictures of a couple of bent 504s at Leighterton:
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P00048.019

I read that the RAF suffered 10,000 casualties during WW2 due to non-combat losses. :(

Canberra?
 

Might be worth looking at actual losses from incidents versus fatal training accidents.

Seem to recall that one of the major causes of death in WWII was road accidents caused by the blackout.

I read that the OCUs tended to get the 'bent' airframes rejected by the front line squadrons, and were last in line for spares. Hence a large number of training sorties were flown in unservicable aircraft. The odds were stacked against the poor sods!

The trend continued way beyond WWII. In my time I averaged attendance at an aircrew funeral once a year. Only 10% of these deaths were attributable to combat/airworthiness. The other 90% was loosely termed 'aircrew error'.

No 8(Training) Squadron Australian Flying Corps (AFC) flew from RFC Halton Park in 1917 before relocating in 1918 - which is now RAF Halton. RAF Halton is the last airfield in the RAF which was in use throughout World War One; the only older one in MoD service being Upavon.

There is an ~150yd chalk circle with "HALTON" written in it is still there, is this what was used for the 10,000ft forced landing exercise? I always believed it was for airfield conspicuity?

Anyway, RAF Halton still conducts similar activity these days by training Air Cadets to solo standard (when they start flying again!), teaching 12 Service Personnel to glide a week (up to solo standard) as a force development activity, and hosting the largest RAF Flying Club and Microlight Club. Probably as close to the flying activity from 100 years ago than anywhere else with such a history. The Trenchard Museum is well worth a visit as well (check it out here http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/abou...hardmuseum.cfm).

LJ

You can see the circle in the bottom of this photo from the 1930s - it still exists today as seen further below:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/rafc...EDF17F74DE.jpg

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/rafc...08BBB8D1C9.jpg

D'oh! Just measured the Halton circle on GoogleEarth and it is 82yds in diameter. Also, an article in Flight in January 1919 reporting on the ‘Civil Aerial Transport Committee’ stated:

So my info on the circle looks 'duff' unless anyone knows different?

It's still the only RAF airfield left with a chalk circle that I'm aware of though...:8

LJ :ugh:

Training Casualties.
 

ShotOne,

I believe (rough figures) that of the 55,000 Bomber Command crews killed in WW2, some 8,000 were in training.

This was considered acceptable (and indeed as inevitable) at the time.

In the book “The First of the Few” by Denis Winter, he writes:
"Put statistically, official figures at the end of the war listed 14,166 dead pilots, of whom 8,000 had died while training in the UK. In other words more pilots died training at home than were killed by the enemy, a remarkable state of affairs, which even reached the ears of Parliament. On 20 June 1918 the Secretary of State was asked for an explanation. His answer naturally put the blame on the pilots themselves, since 'discipline after all was not the pre-eminent quality of youth.'"
In the book 'Billy Bishop: Canadian Hero,' the author notes Bishop was judged ready to solo after just three hours flying time, and received his wings after less than 20 hours. He then writes:
"Such limited preparation seems preposterous today, and perhaps it explains why fatal crashes were an everyday occurrence at British flight schools. Indeed, while 6,000 aviators were killed in combat with the German Air Force between 1914 and 1918, a shocking 8,000 more were destined to die in England while they learned how to fly."
Describing his training in a letter home, Bishop made it clear there were plenty of crashes. He wrote:
"Yesterday I had 3 forced landings, 2 of which I managed to get into the aerodrome, but the last one I crashed on the side of a hill."
He adds: "Last night we had a boy killed here and another this morning. I saw them both, perfectly ghastly sights."

Waddington opened in November 1916 as a training base for RFC aircrew. Flying accidents were a common occurrence as depicted in the many images of wrecked aircraft in Waddington's photo archive (some waiting for a future caption contest). The aircraft of the time - (initially Shorthorns and Grahame White XVs at Waddington) - were poorly maintained, with underpowered and unreliable engines. Later training was carried out in totally unsuitable obsolete operational aircraft such as the RE8 which was a handful to even the most experienced pilots. It was not until early 1918 that the (by now) RAF training system was overhauled with properly trained instructors in proper training aircraft such as the DH6. At one stage in 1917, the losses were so many that a German Spy was suspected of sabotage and the number of guards was tripled, to no effect. Indeed, the loss rate at Waddington was no different to the RNAS training bases at Cranwell and Digby.


Over 30 aircrew were buried in the churchyard at Waddington (with many more sent for burial in their home towns). Unfortunately all but one of these graves were destroyed in a German air raid in May 1941. The surviving grave is the resting place of 2nd Lt CR Marks who was killed in May 1917 when his aircraft disintegrated in flight.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...82306089_n.jpg

On a ground tour, I was local controller the morning following a 'V' crash on the airfield. The 'bits' were still lying around - I won't go into detail of the reported injuries.
I felt that there was no need for the tower controller to inspect the scene at that stage and collect data for future nightmares so I didn't.

My immediate colleagues and I were very lucky to join the RAF in the mid sixties when training attrition was reducing dramatically.

The military have been flying from Netheravon since 1912.

WW1: Apologies if mentioned before. It was RFC/RAF policy until September 16th 1918 to ban parachutes. One wonders how many lives were lost thanks to that ridiculous order!

WW2: Survival rates from Lancasters were 15% and Halifax 25%, USAAF 50%. Freeman Dyson discovered that the escape hatch on Lancs was literally one inch too small to allow an airman to escape (with ease) with full gear and chute. He campaigned unsuccessfully to have it enlarged. He also computed that a Lanc minus two turrets and two crew members would have been 50mph faster. Again he was ignored.

A statistic that must surely be revised post Hadden-Cave and Phillip?

Mind you, training was a littel different in WWI

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28330113

From what remains of my memory, l believe the RAF received 200 Jaguar bombers in the mid 70s, and by the time l left late 80s, 50 of these had been lost in accidents.

Including 1 shot down in error by a RAF phantom with a dicky arming switch, all for the sake of a bit of "Dymo Tape".

Of a total of around 70 RN Scimitars built nearly fifty percent were written off in accidents. There wasn't even a war on !

Of 20 A-4Gs received by the RAN 10 were lost!

Yes, but the Aussies are very careless. Probably left them somewhere beyond the black stump.

Nah, mostly just dropped them in the ocean...

The RAAF bought 115 Mirage III's. 39 crashed (hull loss).

22 ejections,
20 pilots injured.
14 pilots killed.

I think training accidents have decreased rapidly for multiple factors over the last 30 years. Systems have improved. They weren't flown by triple redundant fly-by-wire computers in those days, and 'risk management' was simply a calculation on the chance of dying.

ISTR 6 fatalities at Valley between Jan and Jun 66, some of which were glide landings (simulated engine failure) in "manual". A Flying Order was issued "Solo student who experience engine failure are to eject, Instructors are to use their discretion and then eject".

Yep, these figures are more or less the same for all operators of the early generation Mach 2 fighters. The Belgians lost 40% of their Mirage 5 and 36% of their F-104 fleets, the Germans (in)famously lost 292 out of 916 Starfighters delivered, France lost more than 1/3rd of their Mirage IIIE, and the list goes on and on for most air forces, with very few exceptions (Spain comes to mind).

Wasn't different at all on the other side of the fence, by the way. East Germany lost almost 50% of their MiG-19 and 24% of their MiG-21, while flying far fewer hours than Western air forces. AFAIR, the numbers for other WP air forces were similar or even worse.

At least for European air forces, in addition to the reasons you mentioned, a lot of losses were caused by adverse conditions - low-level flight in bad weather and/or at night, with rather primitive navigation aids from today's perspective.