Yet another RN led evacuation without RAF air cover.
 

This afternoon and probably still ongoing, although the Grad are on it.
Okay a bit tongue in cheek on my part, but hey seriously!! How soon could the RAF have put an "umbrella" over downtown Libya this Sunday afternoon? (Stands to be put in place here but I'm guessing we have on a Sunday afternoon absolutely nothing sober from the RAF that could have helped if it had got nasty).


Royal Navy evacuates Britons from Libya amid fierce fighting | World news | The Guardian


(Its 2649km from a point in Northern England, near the Yorkshire Airbase I have I mind, to Tripoli. According to Google Maps anyway- have we got an aircraft in the RAF that can fly, loiter, drop a bomb - do something useful, and then get back to the UK?)

Do try to keep up.

Libya: RAF carries out biggest raid yet on Gaddafi forces - Telegraph

Don't be so ungrateful. If it wasn't for the RAF, Gadaffi'd still be in charge and you wouldn't have got to sail there. And he must have been very nasty cos he was a mate of Tony's,

Joking apart, it's not long since my employer was discussing Libya opening up as a holiday destination. Any takers now?

Can you get decent hotel accommodation at such short notice?

Fair enough answers.
 

But worrying. Wasn't even a top story on the TV news, which amazes me when I think about it. So to recap;
1. A small, practically unarmed RN ship (normally used for surveying duty), has to be diverted to Libya to evacuate UK persons trapped by fighting. (Which it does).
2. Was it backed up by other, harder UK weaponry?
3. Was UK air power available?
4. What if things had gone badly wrong?


It must be just me then.

You do come across a bit strong HS and perhaps with an axe to grind. Who said they needed air cover? What makes you think that this has not been constantly monitored by our joint HQ? Do you thing single services just make it up as they go along?

I'm tempted to say, "Any excuse to have a go." But I won't. I would guess if you really want an answer, go ask the Cabinet. I'm sure they'll be happy to explain.

Why does this inter-service bollocks keep going on? Don't you guys get it yet?

Probably a bit more quickly than the RN could have got a ship in to evacuate EPs from S. Sudan like the RAF did not long ago.

Tongue in cheek? Utter bollocks!!

That chip on your shoulder could be used as the main spar on a cruise liner. Get a life, if the MOD had wanted air cover, they would have got it.
They have chopped the fighter force to nothing and have them deployed on ops. Who exactly in your 'non-sober' RAF were you hoping to send??

PS. Quote: The ship's departure is not considered as a rescue mission. There are still commercial means to leave the country.

Presumably, JT2, as he's using 'a Yorkshire airbase' for his calculations, Tucanos? :confused:

Hangarsuffle,

You are Frank Ledwidge and I claim my £5; (although you may be Lewis Page).

Punching Below Our Weight is available for download from a popular South American river for 61p. All the usual suspects marshaled together into a 5000 word third former's rant; (the publisher's editor missed a trick by binning the bit about moving Australia 500 miles on the map).

The RAF can't help. Cameron has them busy.

PM criticised over RAF trips at our expense: Cameron accused of wasting taxpayers' money after flying home one day into holiday to attend Commonwealth Games closing ceremony and World War I commemorations | Mail Online

If there was a threat, why send a survey ship or are all the war canoes in the Caribbean for the summer season?

Is that the best that you can do? Seriously? :rolleyes:

It's the wrong time of year. The unit based on Cyprus to deal with such situations is currently on operations in the UK.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...83072668_n.jpg

:}

Well, they did it and got away with it.
 

Nothing much in the papers about it this afternoon, so I suppose they got away with it again. No, not much of an axe to grind to you naysayers above, just thought I'd speak up for the junior people on the ship - these sorts of things can go so very wrongly for the RN, as we have seen before in recent years and its usually the juniors who have to pay for it. Just strikes me as a risky thing to do, to send a lightly armed survey ship inshore to do a warship + marines job that's all. I speak from experience, happily now I'm a civvy I can watch from afar,from the cheap seats. If we have the "4th largest defence budget in the world", as I keep hearing, its not much of a show to achieve the result, is it?
And I'm sorry, but again, I would have thought that as a part of the planning process for a mission like this, multi-service operations staff would factor in some sort of air support if the situation had become difficult for the survey ship.
Anyway, well done the RN and others involved.

Unfortunately, warships and marines are in short supply in the RAF

Not as bad as the air cover for the defence of Crete in May 1941. The RAF had (in theory) 12 Gladiators, 6 Hurricanes and 12 Blenheim F1s. The Luftwaffe fielded Luftflotte IV with 248 fighters, 264 Bombers, and 392 Stukas which supported XI Fleigerkorps with 530 Ju52 and 69 gliders. Needless to say, the Luftwaffe controlled the skies and sank many warships that had run out of AAA ammunition.


The army recommended the RN not to risk more ships for the evacuation of Allied forces. Adm A.B. Cunningham in charge of the Mediterranean fleet answered: "It takes 3 years to build a ship - it takes 300 years to build a tradition. We will go". Over 10,000 troops were evacuated back to Alexandria as a result (and more ships went to the bottom). Talk about leadership!!!!

Hangarshuffle said:
How do you know air support wasn't factored in? I'm assuming you're not on the list of peeps that would be briefed on the remit and extent of the mission, and/or the contingent forces assigned to it?

Trust me, it will have been planned for.

Sun.

Ok, I will trust you when you say it was factored in. I'm just interested. I/we have gone from an age when we carried our own onboard fixed and rotary assets, and much more from the RAF - to what we have now, which I guess would be UK land based Fighter Bombers from somewhere in the UK. Not Yorkshire apparently.
Things like this may be more and more the future operations for the UK military - who are supposed be to be lighter, more responsive more hard hitting etc etc, to read the blurb.
But one wonders about it all, which is why I posted the slightly provocative slightly tongue in cheek starter.
The public wont have it if and when it goes wromg, however.

HS, for non combatant evacuation operations, there are a variety of bases in the Med that a NATO nation or group can operate from.

If a NEO was what was in progress, UK isn't left all alone in that region. There are deals premade and contingency plans on the shelf, at need.

WRONG AGAIN!!!
The public don't give a ****. If the internet went off, THEN they would care. If taxes went up to pay for the forces, they would care about that too!!

These sort of evacuations are best left to civilian commercial operators, who quietly get the job done with no fuss - and charge the commercial companies (mostly from the very wealthy oil & gas sectors) who put their people into these positions appropriate commercial rates to exfiltrate them.

When the MOD reacts to tabloid pressure with their heroic PR-releases blazing that "brave troops are facing bullets to risk stranded British ex-patriots etc etc blah blah" this distorts the commercial reality of commercial competition in politically risky markets.

Responsible companies put in place stringent evacuation procedures for their personnel - and then execute them at considerable cost when necessary. They are then commercially penalised by the MOD that comes in and bravely "rescues" personnel from useless irresponsible outfits that should not be even operating in the region because they do not put in place evacuation procedures and rely on the FCO and MOD to get them out of trouble.

A further consequence is that the RAF ends up taking away work from commercial operators who want the evacuation work.

So, in summary, your insinuation that the RN should not be going in to Libya without RAF top-cover is pretty hilarious really. The RN should not be sending in the ship in the first place - it is just an MOD publicity stunt.

For the moment, all evacuations should be at the cost of the employer and their insurers, and should be paid to the AOC holders who are still prepared to operate into the region. That should only change when no AOC operators are prepared to go - which is not the case at the moment.

I seem to be in the minority here, but I'll play Devil's Advocate and side with the OP. Things in Libya have deteriorated to the point where the Embassy is suspending operations, clearly a sign for British nationals to GTFO. The Navy vessel sent to assist with this operation was, as the OP pointed out, barely armed (20mm, miniguns and GPMG according to t'interwebs). While it seems the crew of HMS Enterprise did a splendid job of getting British nationals and a few others out of Libya to Malta, I feel like the original question is valid: What if things had gone badly?

One reply asked the OP to 'please keep up' and posted a link to an article about the Tornado missions striking Libyan targets in 2011. Well that seems unfair. As a civilian I can only guess, but I bet my guess is good when I assume that those missions were planned well in advance with a lot of support. Quite different to the situation if Enterprise had run into hostile chappies with ill intent. Sure there are agreements in place within NATO to use bases for NEOs, but what if thing went down hill quickly, as they did for the US in Benghazi? A tooled up GR4 sitting at Marham does sweet FA for the people under fire on the way to the harbour, I'm sure.

Again, no disrespect to anyone, and thankfully things went off without a hitch, no matter why the British nationals were there and regardless of whether their employers should have evaced them earlier. But I bet everyone wold have felt better if the UK still had enough resources to have pointy things that make other things go bang a bit closer than East Anglia.

Trim Stab

Re your post #24, you say the MOD taking away from commercial.

How come the RAF had to go in in Hercs and pull out the people a few years back, copping a bullet through the wind screen in the process (not sure if any other bullets hit the aircraft).

The question you have to ask is: Did they need air cover?

I suspect at the moment the answer is no, it is purely a ground threat; is any armour involved? I'd say probably not. The main threat is Small arms and potentially some vehicle mounted heavy weapons. Do you need a 4.5" gun to deal with that? No. Do you need Harpoon missiles to deal with that? Again no. The other question is collateral damage, what exactly is a Tornado/Typhoon going to do when faced with lots of people with AK47s storming the dockside? I don't think they're going to drop a bomb on it. All RN Vessels practice NEO during their workups and they have lots of tactics to defeat the bad guys, the safest of which is to just untie the ship and move away from the dock edge. In that scenario it would be easier to put a slightly smaller yet more manoeuvrable vessel that can easily navigate potentially dangerous waterways.

In any event, GPMGs, Miniguns and a 20mm would be able to keep he dockside well under control until all essential passengers were onboard, the shore party would be able to give plenty of notice of any incoming threats from ground personnel. The only thing air cover would provide would be eyes in the sky and it would be quite difficult working out the difference between bad and good.

I heard it was the ENTERPRISE! Doesn't that bring its own air cover with it!

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ENTERPRISE!

Sorry that's a proper ship and the wrong Navy!

Or is it the wrong ship and a proper Navy!

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I'll get my coat!

Aaaaarrrrfffff!

:cool:

Bloggs!

Just watching the telly news reports i thought the ship did not go alongside the harbour wall but instead stood off and the civvies were transferred by 2 tugs ?

Whatever gets the job done. :ok:

It's OK. Just had an email from Sharky. It turns out it was all another RAF plot to discredit the RN. Man, those RAF guys play rough!

Generally these things get planned in a way that means if certain things happen, other things can happen in response. There was no need for a carrier or RAF air cover for a routine evacuation (I'm curious as to why the OP feels it was needed for a ship, but has never been needed for many of the RAF led NEO in recent years?).

I know its easy to slip into fantasian dreams that somehow had HMS ILLUSTRIOUS had her flying circus onboard then somehow all would be well as the mighty GR9 would have kept the enemy at bay, but what if she'd been alongside, or in the Pacific or doing something else?

ENTERPRISE went probably because she happened to be the closest ship in the region at the time. Many different ships have done NEOs over the years - its not something you can only do if you have steely weapons and a rakish bow you know.

Why the bloody hell does this pathethic desire to slag off the Crabs come about at every opportunity by some Naval supporters? I've spent my entire adult life wearing Dark Blue and I am ashamed at the nasty cheap point scoring on display from the OP here - he does the RN an enormous disservice. You don't speak for the RN and I am glad others here can see that.

:D

Simple..

Navy have ships and boats. They do this real good.
RAF have 'planes and choppers [allegedly] they do this real good as well
Army has guns and blow **** up. They try and deny they enjoy this but.......

Thank you for being so honest in your response there.

Respect. :D