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Originally Posted by The Sultan
(Post 8563002)
The 53K is a derivative, but the revolutionary in every way V-22 was contracted in 1983 and first flew in 1989. The K was contracted in 2006 and will still be sitting on the ground in 2015 or beyond. Get someone to do the math for you.
How's that vaporware bird doing, amigo? I refer to the 525, which is doing "flight test" in a simulator. Let us know if it ever flies. |
Sultan,
Your history and memory are both quite fuzzy. The Osprey is neither "new" nor "revolutionary" but is itself a DERIVATIVE with its roots firmly based in the 1950's. We have been through this many times before with you. Would you mind keeping up with the discussion and not try to describe the situation to suit yourself over and over....something that is itself nothing new or revolutionary. Bell flew the XV-3 from 1953-1966. Your Osprey is a DERIVATIVE of that if you care to check it. |
Boudreaux
You are being silly. The 53 (which I think is fantastic and we should have bought incidentally) has many variants. One of these is the K. It is last in a long line of development of the 53 series. It is thus a derivative. To suggest that the V22 is a derivative of the XV-3 is imbecilic. A descendent, yes, in much the same way that a 53 is the descendent of that first sikorsky helicopter he flew wearing the hat. Have all the arguments you want about which is better, bigger, faster, more cost effective etc, but don't be fatuous. |
So if it's the King Stallion, it will be ripe for the nickname Foo....
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Tourist,
However you wish to define "Derivative" is your business. That the V-22 is directly based upon research done on the XV-3, XV-15, and projects done to overcome problems with the design of Tilt Rotor Aircraft is not debatable as it most assuredly is. If we can say the UH-1 Huey is derived from the Bell 47, we can most assuredly say the same about the Osprey and its roots in the XV-3. That History started in 1950 with the first flight taking place in 1955. http://history.nasa.gov/monograph17.pdf |
CH-53K for Israel next
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Tourist is right Bob; derivative is not the same as descended from.
If we can say the UH-1 Huey is derived from the Bell 47... |
The Bell 47. Now there's an aircraft that changed the world!
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Is that as close as Sikorsky can get to a BERP blade without paying the UK royalties? |
CH-53K Still Rolling Out 7 Years Late
From Flightglobal:
The US Navy’s acquisition chief expects the Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion to take its first flight this fall, placing the long-awaited milestone somewhere between now and November. The super-heavy-lift helicopter for the Marine Corps has seen its share of technical troubles and delays, but the navy is still targeting an initial operational capability date of 2019. The aircraft, which began development in 2006, was meant to be approved for “Milestone C” low-rate initial production and deployment in 2012, but the target was revised to 2016 due to budgeting and development issues with further postponements likely unless the first CH-53K can get off the ground this year. Lonewolf when I posted the 53K wouild still be on the ground through 2015 you wrote: Quote: Says the shill for the company who cannot and will not build a large helicopter. Your input is noted. How's that vaporware bird doing, amigo? I refer to the 525, which is doing "flight test" in a simulator. Let us know if it ever flies. The Sultan |
Four years late per the 2006 schedule. Sold as a derivative in order to justify sole-source award to Sikorsky. And it is a derivative of the CH-53E, apart from entirely new engines, rotors, transmission, fuselage and avionics.
EMD was supposed to be $2.9 billion. What is it now, I wonder? Marine procurement strikes again. |
Low
They sold it as a minor upgrade to another gullible customer (like the Cyclone). It's first flight is 6-7 years late. IOC will probably be 10 years late. Poor L-M. The Sultan |
The customer was not in the least gullible. It was a tacit agreement to bypass competition and understate the costs. The Marines don't pay for this stuff anyway - it comes out of the Navy air budget.
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Originally Posted by The Sultan
(Post 9114464)
By by the way the 525 is flying, if you missed it.
@Low Observable: given how the procurement world works on this side of the pond, and given how things like JSF (and for that matter, Osprey) eat APN-1 money like no tomorrow (with ripple effects on all other acquisition programs) it was a smarter strategy by the PMA to not go for a clean sheet of paper design. Had that been done, we'd not see it where it is now. Your criticisms appear to hold a parochial interest. What's your skin in this game? |
Finally made it's first flight...
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Rotors look more like the Carson blades fitted to Sea Kings in Afghanistan than BERP (albeit much bigger!)
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Not a direct derivative, but clearly common thought process: The LTV XC-142.
Checking back in history, the V in LTV was Vought, which was once allied with Sikorsky. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C7sDjNtijc |
Second CH-53K helicopter joins flight test program| Vertical Magazine
Sikorsky, a Lockheed Martin Company, has announced the second CH-53K helicopter has joined the flight test program and achieved first flight. In addition, the first aircraft into the test program has achieved flight envelope expansion to 120 knots for the United States Marine Corps' (USMC) CH-53K King Stallion heavy lift helicopter program. "Adding a second aircraft into flight status signifies another milestone for the CH-53K program," said Mike Torok, Sikorsky's vice president of CH-53K programs. "With both aircraft in flight test, our flight envelope expansion efforts will accelerate as we continue to make good progress toward our initial operational test assessment and full aircraft system qualification." The first and second CH-53K heavy lift helicopter engineering development models (EDM) achieved their first flights on Oct. 27, 2015, and Jan. 22, 2016, respectively. To date, these helicopters have achieved over 35 flight hours combined including multiple flights with an active duty USMC pilot at the controls. As the flight test program proceeds, these two flying CH-53K helicopters will be joined by two additional aircraft to complete flight qualification of the USMC's next generation heavy lift capability over an approximately three-year flight test program. These first two aircraft are the most heavily instrumented of the EDM and will focus on structural flight loads and envelope expansion. When the other two EDM aircraft join the flight line in 2016 they will focus on performance, propulsion and avionics flight qualification. |
From Flightglobal:
Operating from Sikorsky’s flight-test centre in West Palm Beach, Florida, the first engineering development model (EDM) recently achieved 120kt, just 21kt shy of its advertised speed of 141kt. The Sultan |
Originally Posted by The Sultan
(Post 9311540)
What happened to the cruise speed of 170 Knots?
While I am not sure if 141 is a milestone or is that the final spec/requirement, at the Sikorsky site they list the cruise speed as 141 knots. One wonders: Is that a design trade off that pays the bills for the substantial payload increase over the E? We'll see. |
Coincidentally
Seeing that "141kt" figure also sent me to the Sikorsky site, which then led to sidetracked browsing of their quite detailed Rotary Wing Legacy area where I saw this: "In 1956 a Marine HR2S-1 helicopter set 3 World records: a speed record without payload of 162.7 mph (141.4 kts); an altitude record of..."
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Lone,
The V-22 is cheap compared what the 53K will cost. As to the low speed I have never seen Sikorsky put out conservative numbers. Is the slow speed related to the some compromise they had to do with the transmission to make the redesign acceptable or something with the rotor? The Sultan |
The 53K will be a very good and reliable heavy lift rotorcraft eventually. There was a big jump in performance between the 53E and 53K models. The V-22 had quite a few development issues, yet it has turned out to be a very nice rotorcraft.
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CH-53K's entry into low-rate production delayed eight months
In Flight Global today:-
CH-53K's entry into low-rate production delayed eight months The Sikorsky CH-53K’s entry into low-rate production has been delayed again, this time by eight months to February 2017, because of gearbox failures last year and the late delivery of parts from suppliers, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports in its annual assessment of Pentagon weapon projects. The King Stallion development effort achieved first flight last October – "nearly three years later than originally planned" and five years after completing its critical design review. In January, the second test model began flying at Sikorsky's facility in West Palm Beach, Florida and the GAO report notes that it contains the improved gearbox that was first trialled on a ground test vehicle. “The unexpected redesigns of the aircraft's various gearboxes, as well as the late delivery of some components, have delayed delivery of the remaining two engineering design model test aircraft,” the GAO states in its 31 March report. “This has created delays at the production facility where parts are received from vendors, which is expected to impact the flight test schedule.” The supersized King Stallion heavy-lift helicopter will replace the US Marine Corps' Sikorsky CH-53E, which was introduced in the 1980s and has anticipated service life of 41 years. The cost of developing the aircraft has grown by 44% from $4.7 billion to $6.8 billion since 2005 and the procurement estimate for 200 aircraft stands at $19 billion. The date for completion of operational testing shifted nine months since the GAO's 2015 report, from September 2018 to June 2019. Despite gearbox troubles and the reported production issues, the Marines still expect to have the first war-ready squadron in place by July 2019.. Sikorsky officials said at a recent press briefing that the CH-53K flight test programme expects to log about 100h in 2016. The Lockheed Martin-owned helicopter manufacturer expects to complete the second and third flight test aircraft this year, to support performance, propulsion and avionics flight qualification. US Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) reported on 24 March that the King Stallion recently demonstrated its advertised speed of 140kts with 15° angle-of-bank turns. “This marked the last test flight in direct mode,” NAVAIR says. “The primary flight control system work up included 120kts, climbs and descents and hovering pedal turns.” |
US Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) reported on 24 March that the King Stallion recently demonstrated its advertised speed of 140kts with 15° angle-of-bank turns. The Sultan |
Originally Posted by The Sultan
(Post 9333422)
Wow those are impressive performance numbers for a 1950's rotorcraft.
Program set back ... gee, what modern program isn't running into this? It appears that pushing the edge of the performance and payload envelopes keeps being difficult. Good thing the V-22 never had any problems during development ... (oh, wait, V-22 isn't actually on topic in this discussion). But look at what the Marines get for sticking with it, the V-22, no matter the criticisms and no matter the set backs. A good bird. Here's a thought: they'll get the same with the 53K. A good bird that hauls loads of stuff. (IIRC, they aren't going for speed as the major metric with 53K, that's what Avenger and Defiant are chasing after) |
Lone
I was talking speed and bank angle. I am sure the bank angle will increase, but the reported max speed by Sikosky is 142 knots! I apologize to 1950 helicopter designers the max speed for the S-58 was 150 kts, so the 53K's reported max of 142 is poor by the standards of the 50's. The Sultan |
Originally Posted by The Sultan
(Post 9333532)
, but the reported max speed by Sikosky is 142 knots!
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FFS Sultan, let it run through the test program.
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WC
If you scan the threads it is NAVAIR and Sikorksy press releases which keep stating the surprising low max speed of 142 Knots. One would expect a press release, especially from Sikorksy, would say that the envelope expansion is paused at 140 Knots for tests before expanding to the originally published speed of 170 K. None of them have. So right now 142 Kts is the ships PR max speed. Numerous have commented that this is strange. Ass a tax payer one would expect the an 53K with no external load to at least keep up with the UH-1Y. The Sultan |
I'm sure the 53K will eventually operate at speeds well above that of the 53E. After all, the 53K has around 9000hp more available than the 53E.
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CH-53K arrived in Europe
It has arrived today, in Germany ahead of next month's ILA,
cheers https://farm1.staticflickr.com/800/4...c5c76c9e_b.jpg |
Thanks chopper. Those sponsons are indeed huge.
Any comment on the flight display? Aggressive or routine? I would imagine they will want to show some underslung loads off. |
Originally Posted by The Sultan
(Post 9333532)
Lone
I was talking speed and bank angle. I am sure the bank angle will increase, but the reported max speed by Sikosky is 142 knots! The Sultan |
Originally Posted by sandiego89
(Post 10134250)
Thanks chopper. Those sponsons are indeed huge.
Any comment on the flight display? Aggressive or routine? I would imagine they will want to show some underslung loads off. |
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...with the gear down the entire flight.
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Originally Posted by Lyneham Lad
(Post 10377453)
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