Do what most other fleets seem to do - paint a big 50 on the fin...............

That Jaguar picture makes a nice wallpaper thank you :)

Bin 'em - its over.
 

Alright I'll say it - bin them. Its over.
I drove up the A1 on Monday and down again yesterday and there is barely a sign of life on the 3 airfields (and you know which ones.....).
The public aren't the mugs you take them for and they see the RAF for what it is in 2014.
Red Arrows are from another era.
Use the aircrew and money to defend our interests and not to flatter our egos.

Quite right. They aren't. I'm 'the public' and you 'aint speaking for me...:=

One wonders if it will be a version of the colour scheme applied to the ETPS Gripen:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...gripen_arp.jpg

Perhaps including the pelican that is indicative of CFS heritage.

What would be truly novel - No manning shortages among the groundcrew?

Exactly what I said Fox, with the best will in the world, and to be honest I always thought they were under recognised and seen as a necessary evil.... been there, seen it, read it and got the teeshirt .
Personally I think each pilot should be spend at least week in a hangar each year to appreciate the work involved in generating a jet..... The end of the day, YOUR life is in their hands, no one else's, you can have the most reliable, safe aircraft in the world, but under service it or skimp on the support and it's your life your putting on the line

In my service career I had one episode I remember vividly, I was prepping a Jet off to Gib from Deci for a weekend on the piss with several others, it had a hyd leak dripping from a door, I had it checked by an A/F Chief that said it's ok.
On start up I checked it again, drip was worse and fresh, so I signalled him to shut down as the rest departed, I was then confronted by a pilot throwing his helmet on the floor and a tirade of verbal abuse, If I wasn't in the Airforce he would have been sh*tting teeth for a week! but I stood my ground and said no, eventually the door was opened and he was informed the jet wouldn't have got there... Never really got a proper apology, no "Good Show" certificate etc, not that I was interested having already having some, BUT he knew I had probably saved his life, and HE KNEW IT, you could we it in his face everytime we saw each other .
Through out my 35 years plus as an aircraft engineer, I have always worked to one standard, "would I let my Mum Fly in it?" If that answer was no or I was unsure, it stayed on Terra Firma until I would.

If you could put that into a memo for the Prime Minister, who has decreed that even thinking about offering the Red Arrows up as a cost saving is a waste of time, copied to the editors of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express, I suspect that you may see a result.

Namely that you'll be given a stiff ignoring, since the merest hint of the disbandment of the team gives the Mail and Express guaranteed wesbite hits and links, plus letters (some even not written in green wax crayon) for some days - prior to the 'campaign to save the Red Arrows' ending with a front page story proclaiming 'victory' for the newspaper and its readership.

Bin them? - Get lost. You may feel an emasculated shadow of your former self, but the public love 'em. A lady friend of mine met R10 recently and has walked the precipice of involuntary orgasm ever since.

Perhaps unsurprising, given that, according to its own website, Red 10 is :
That must the first use of the words 'stylish' and 'Doncaster' in the same sentence!

Bin them - we can no longer afford it.
 

Ourselves as others see us (today).


How we can still have a small (possibly now dysfunctional) RAF flying display team in these times, when some much more relevant use could be made with the money and the people within it, escapes me.
Not so much a display team but a fig leaf.


Read this chaps thoughts about UK defence below.


UK not 'full partner' with US, says former defence chief - Telegraph


But as long as some aging trainers flying about, this is all ok?

My mum's house is in Tornado Alley just off the end of the Red's runway. In the last 10 years they are the only fastish jets I have seen over the UK. Although I have a certain sympathy for the bin 'em view, we can't do that because if we did no one would know the RAF existed!

This argument about binning the RAFAT is regularly advanced by those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
I can't imagine the French would ever consider retiring the Patrouille de France - seen here just down the road displaying at Saint-Jean-de-Luz.

Seen a photograph on UKAR website.

It could be a photoshop photo, and these days any image can be created.

What a mess. Hoping it is a photoshop.

Replace the Red Heart with a Bullseye.....and the Red's would be on to something.:E

I've seen a photo somewhere of a private biz jet that has had a Spitfire silhouette painted on the underside, I should imagine you could paint a complete Reds Concorde formation under a Voyager and double up on the Airshow circuit..... Think of the savings...

:p

I'd rather they spent the 'Reds' money on keeping the Vulcan (and preferably more than one) in flying condition. As long as it's, or they're, painted anti-flash white.

I would suggest that those who know, and probably care, little of the RAF as a whole, would feel a great loss of a national institution should the Red Arrows ever be dis-banded. If cost is an issue perhaps we should reduce our 'Foreign Aid' funding to pay for them.

Or the Shack, already in white and they're working towards getting it airborne again.



.

Bin them.
 

Use Typhoons instead? Something new, better. Let the UK taxpayers see what their hard earned pays for.
Reduce the formation to say, five.
Paint them red, but keep them within the admin of a proper operational RAF squadron.


The only way forward, far as I can see. Sorry but I think the old way is past it.

Hangarshuffle, you are now clearly revealing that you know neither the price nor value of things following that statement. Replacing with Typhoon?!! At around 10 times the cost per flying hour to operate, even reducing the Reds to 5 jets would be more expensive overall! Moreover, it would take 5 war jets away from where they would be better utilised. Seriously, lay off the pints of 'bitter & twisted' mate.

The reason RAFAT survives is that it delivers way more than the resource with which it is allocated. In recruitment, sales exports and professional prestige terms alone, the Reds punch well above their weight.

I'm personally glad that they are celebrating such an important milestone in 2014 and I'm confident they'll do it with a hefty amount of éclat!

Aside from the cost (! :)) it would give them something to do with all the Tranche 1 jets that are due to be retired........

.... Could be worse. They could be replaced with spare Tornado GR4's. Good luck trying to get 9 serviceable and the crowd may have to wait half an hour and need good eyesight as the GR4's turn through 180 degs at the end of each flypast.

The Dearworthers.
 

Hang on a minute!! RAF Scampton only has one flying unit - the Dearworthers!! I've just read it!


RAF Scampton - RAF Station homepage


The old WingCO looks a bit puce - is he sat on a hedgehog or something?!




You mean to tell me they cant share?! When whole units and bases and squadrons closed or were binned, the RAF keep this little flying thing going?! Hell, that's a scam....Scampton!!


Fair point DWOCS about costs mate - seem I know as little as anyone else?!!


Its a fig leaf for our politicians to pretend all is well in the world - everyone knows this.


Its just in these defence cash strapped times Id be happier if it was a proper combat unit flying proper fighter planes.


Maybe they should do a display and turn the smoke on to form the shapes or forms of numbers, how much they cost, how much they bring in?!!

The signature phrase of those conspiracy theorists who don't actually have a clue. Keep taking your pills Mr Shuffle.

The 'old way' was, in fact, to nominate a fighter squadron as the RAFAT - hence the Black Arrows, Blue Diamonds (Hunters), Tigers and Firebirds (Lightnings). This was hugely expensive and, in effect, rendered a fighter squadron non-operational for the duration of their time as the aerobatic display squadron.

It seems that your concern is that the Red Arrows reduce the operational effectiveness of the RAF. If so, then your proposed solution would have a direct, negative effect upon the operational effectiveness of the RAF several orders of magnitude greater than continuing to operate an RAFAT with nine Hawk T1s...

At a time when it's becoming ever more difficult to man the FTSs, it does seem incongruous that the RAF still has a pool of 9 potential QFIs in the Reds. We have to face the fact that with all the cutbacks, the RAF is dropping below a self-sustaining level for its current format; something has to give.

DH,
Merge RAFAT with The Ton and fly a simpler display requiring less aircraft and less intensive training (Patrouille Suisse style?). Enables a coherent use and conservation of remaining T1 'life' and would generate appreciable savings in Operating Costs. Oh and Scampton can finally be put out of its misery....:(

"The time has come," the Walrus said!

It was always on the cards! Even in my time in the MOD it was included as a line in the annual LTC review. It would now appear inevitable as the RAF shrinks to almost a token force. It can no longer be seen as an essential recruitment tool as the requirement for pilots is slim to say the least! Furthermore, how much longer will FJ pilots be required to fly in close formation? Is it a necessary skill in this day and age?

If we can't afford to operate two aircraft carriers then how can we afford the Reds? I know they will be sadly missed by all the small kids, many of whom have never seen a low flying aircraft. A great shame but a sign of the times!:ok:

Evalu8ter,

I think you'd be rather surprised at what's in store for scampton over the coming years. It fits into the new employment model rather well...

Why bin the Reds? It's hardly costing a fortune and let's face it, we are not exactly screaming out for pilots at the moment. Although it's not directly measured, I think it's fair to say that most kids become incredibly excited when they see the reds up and about. A powerful tool.

The same can't be said for the Vulcan. Very badly run project and borderline dangerous. Get rid!!!

PP, that's just the point; in certain areas the RAF is screaming out for pilots, especially with the right attributes necessary for QFI. There doesn't seem to be enough of a pool to feed both QFI and RAFAT.

Whilst by no means a scientific, or necessarily representative, indication, my boys are just as excited by the Vulcan as the Reds, perhaps more so.

Not sure what difference it makes anyway, it won't alter my opinion of what their dad thinks the defence budget should be spent on, how big said budget should be, or which way I'll vote next year.

I certainly wouldn't encourage either of them to join up either. I'd support them if they did, of course, but for now I'm 'directing' their interest elsewhere - which isn't too hard a task in any case.

Personally I'd rather see XD818 flying again!

Such a legacy opinion.....;)

Sadly ... I think Newt has called it about right above :(

Maybe 39 Squadron should make a Take Over bid for these guys ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...psbe031039.png

Ironic they are also recruiting ...

DH
 

I don't think culling RAFAT will fix the lack of QFI issue although, I do see your point. The drawdown of the GR4 fleet will surely offer more pilots up to the QFI world.

Bottom line is that it's not RAFAT's fault, I'd be more likely to lay blame at the dreadful state of affairs IV Sqn have been forced into under an appalling contract!

PP

When is the GR4 drawdown? There seems to be some slippage on that! The main point though is whether the GR4 pilots offered upto CFS have the requisite flying hours and experience to pass the initial QFI selection hurdle - there's not a lot of (quality) flying going on in that world at the moment. If not, will they have enough for the Red's? And if not - who will?

Your comment about IV is most perceptive.

I was under the impression that the force starts to drawdown next year.

My guess would be 4 years and counting ...... pull out all the stops, cannibalising the fleet, to keep a 9-ship for the 100th Birthday (if we get that far :() - then Endex Reds.

And to misquote Blue Peter


And here are some we prepared earlier

Reduced to Produce: End of the RAF's Tornado F3 Interceptors | Urban Ghosts |

Mothballed Tornado GR1 and GR4 Await Scrapping at Shawbury | Urban Ghosts |

Nutty ... Those are very sad pics old chap ... especially the remains of the Leuchars F4's :{