There is also the issue of planting trees which are not native to British West Oxfordshire and the resulting influence on the local eco-system.....

The problem of C-130 engine running was the time at which it was often conducted. To many it seems that the standard Hercules servicing policy calls for engine runs - or that absurdly noisy auxiliary power unit - at totally unacceptable times of day/night. Of course some runs are essential, but quite so many? Mind you, I'm told that Belfast engine runs were far, far worse. I heard one once at RAF Abingdon in 1973 during our UAS Summer Camp - it went on for most of the day!

The Atlas should require far fewer engine ground runs as it is a 21st Century design with rather more on-board diagnostics. But currently I hear that the Atlas hangar is threatened by the potential impact upon the local Great Crested Newt population, a species protected by the UK Biodiversity Action Plan....:oh: That might seem quite daft; sorry, but that's UK policy.

Unfortunately the early days of the C-130 relocation to Brize weren't handled particularly well by some. At one meeting with the locals, the Brize station representatives were politely asked why the C-130s weren't sticking to the Station Flying Order Book requirements. Some huffing and puffing and "I'm sure that's not correct" noises were forthcoming, until the well-primed village spokesman read out the exact reference specifying circuit height and 'village avoid' requirements which applied to all station-based aircraft (including the flying club), but which the C-130s weren't observing. 'Collapse of stout party', as the saying goes! But at least that was soon sorted out.

What did they do, rewrite the Station Flying Order Book?

Ohh the Cynic in me :O

Beagle - there is no 'Flying Order Book' at Brize & hasn't been since the move of the C130 there - the rules are contained in BZAOs - pedantic perhaps but it serves to cast doubt on the veracity of the story that you heard as you no doubt weren't there.

When we first arrived C130 circuit height was 1000 ft agl while the 'big jets' flew 1500 ft ones. After only a short interval & enough whinging from the locals all ccts were raised to the common height. So the 'well primed village spokesman' was perhaps not so well-primed as he / you thought.

But of course, simply raising the cct height had no consequences...

Such as contravening SOP with regards to flying Flapless and Double asymmetric ccts which were based on a cct of 1000ft AAL.

My point being that even a seemingly simple change suddenly forces operators to fly outside of SOP. In today's post-Haddon Cave world, nothing is simple.

However, the MOD will have saved around £150million over 10yrs post the move from Lyneham so alles ist gut!

If you read the newspaper and the number of court cases between house holders about said tree's in the area its not as if your introducing something new.

And as for the ecosystem I am sure they plant these bloody newt things when ever they hear there is a project kicking off. I was at a project civilian that involved an old oil pipe yard. The planning permission was put in for a shot blasting plant and the newts aspect reared its head. Funny as the area in question had been covered in radioactive scale for years and used to get sprayed down with diesel. And one of the reasons why the spot was chosen was they were going to have to dig out 3 m down anyway to get rid of the contamination.

They found newts. And two weeks later lots of dead newts. Didn't stop it dragging out for years though. They wanted it decontaminated then left to see if they would come back. Not much chance of that after they replaced the bottom two meters with sandy soil and the top with local top soil. Best drained bit of the yard after that.

A specific exception for the JATE C-130 only. And the Flying Club.

And I can assure you that I know very well that the village spokesman was indeed well-primed......:hmm:

The 'whinging' from the locals was well justified as the 'new arrivals' weren't complying with local orders (in whatever publication you wish to quote), including well-know 'village avoids', with which all other aerodrome users complied.

These days it's wretched insurance companies who actually call for any nearby tree to be felled before they'll consider compensation claims for cracks in walls etc......

I'm afraid you're wrong Beagle. It was the case for all C130s, admittedly for a short time only.

The problem with visual circuits is that the 'bomber' circuits for the jets took them well outside most of the local villages - those for the C130s are closer (1.5nm displaced) so affect Aston, Bampton & Clanfield more. As for avoiding them the noise footprint of a C130 is best directly below but worse off to the side so in trying to avoid the villages (which we do) all we do is make things louder for them.

Do we infer then that it was you that primed him (even if incorrectly)....?

Your well known antipathy to the C130 force is typical of the long-prevailing Brize attitude to Lyneham that finally achieved its ultimate 'victory' - the closure of the secret Wiltshire airbase - and got the RAF in the mess it currently is in. The residents of Wiltshire were proud & supportive of 'their' airfield & would have the C130s back in a moment.

And they'd be most welcome!


Assuming you lot bother to read TAPs, which part of that didn't you understand? Or maybe it was this part:


Feel free to make whatever 'incorrect inferences' you like. Salt and vinegar for your shoulder, Ken?

Congratulations Beagle, you have the current TAPs - I could have posted those as those are the ones in force currently.

I'm talking about those in force when the C130s moved across in 2011 - I don't suppose you'd care to post those? The current regulations are not in question, just your persistent (& incorrect) assertion that they were in use back then.

As to the notion of 'chips', none here, although someone seems to have one against tactical air transport.

Actually, those were the TAPs dated 22 Sep 11. More or less the same as they'd been for the previous 25+ years....:rolleyes: Ever since the VCTA was raised to take account of TriStar GPWS issues.

For example, plate C1 'BRIZE NORTON NOISE ABATEMENT' dated 1 Jun 00 has the very same wording:


Tactical...:ooh:

By the way, there's a branch of Specsavers in Witney - ideal for those who can't read TAPs....:rolleyes:

The 2000 TAP did indeed have the cct height at 1500 ft agl & when we used to visit Brize on a PD we flew 'high-level' ccts. When we re-located to Brize in 2011 there was a short-lived attempt to fly C130 ccts iaw our SOP ie: at 1000ft agl. But then you weren't there in 2011 so you wouldn't know that.....

No point in going to Specsavers as the RAF has its contract for CFS with another opticians, in Swindon I believe.

The TAP was not restricted to visiting aircraft. Yes, there was a futile attempt by the 'newcomers' to annoy the local populace by blithely ignoring the extant requirements and flying lower than other aircraft, including at night, but this clearly was doomed to failure.

As a result, all the C-130s did was to cause animosity and resentment. Smart move that.

It just demonstrated the foolishness of trying to mix a tactical aircraft with its greater emphasis on aircraft handling into an airfield of predominantly strategic assets.

We're agreed on one point then - it wasn't a smart move to co-locate Lyneham & Brize. There aren't many (any?) of the C130 force glad to be there.

Whilst having a pop at each other as to the stupidity of having the C130 at Brize and the forthcoming arrival of the 400, you are making you point of view to the wrong people..

I cannot see how they are making a saving of 150 million by closing Lyneham, because they are not closing it, add to that the cost of building facilities at Brize to take the Herc, something that was already in place with the infrastructure to support them at Lyneham. Then add to that the fact you are now having to convert those facilities at Lyneham to turn it into a training base, whilst pulling out of the likes of Cosford that already has the facilities and infrastructure in place. Except Cosford probably won't close fully as you have the Museum there and excellent transport facilities.

Add that little lot up and the supposed 150 mil savings is peanuts. It amazes me that in the 45 years since I did my basic training, the training facilities have moved from St Athans to Halton to Cosford and now to Lyneham, each move no doubt costing a small fortune in both construction of facilities and movement of all the facilities.

BBC News - Aircraft noise 'link' to stroke and heart disease deaths

How long until the medical claims start hitting Air Command??

BEagle,

You state, "Yes, there was a futile attempt by the 'newcomers' to annoy the local populace by blithely ignoring the extant requirements and flying lower than other aircraft, including at night, but this clearly was doomed to failure."

Yet another anti-C130 post from you - emotional and inaccurate! The TAPs were changed for the arrival of the C130 and allowed 1000 ft QFE circuits - unfortunately I cannot prove it is I don't keep an extensive library of out of date documents! Inevitably the noise complaints increased and the rules were changed back.

We did not attempt (although we clearly succeeded, so the attempts were not "futile"!) to annoy the locals and did not blithely ignore the extant requirements - most of us have lived on or near airfields and know the impact noise can have. The current regulations require the villages to be avoided when below 1800 ft QNH - our in-house rules require us to avoid the villages when flying AT 1800 ft QNH.



course profile,

What happened to your late night post?

Not sure, I used a slightly rude word (with asterisk!) so it might have been pulled? Sorry mods if that's the case.

Other than some kind of more complex emotional issue I can't think of a reason for Beagle to be so Anti Herc. We just did as we were told like everyone else and as always tried to make it work as best we could. I've got to say I thought Brize were really good with us when we arrived. There were people on both 'teams' who thought their way was best and no compromise but most people worked very hard to meet in the middle and to make things work - brings a tear to the eye!

I can confirm I was never in any meeting where we talked about how to best upset the locals whilst cackling and rubbing hands our together with glee.

"It just demonstrated the foolishness of trying to mix a tactical aircraft with its greater emphasis on aircraft handling into an airfield of predominantly strategic assets".

What a load of rubbish, "greater emphasis on aircraft handling", we will be going down the track of our pilots are better than yours next!

Certainly not an attempt to start a p***ing contest but the C130 does require a more 'hands-on' approach in its role compared to other stn types - the VC10 although magnitudes louder generally just departed off to lay its towline somewhere over the North Sea so that contrary to logic the locals found it less intrusive than the C130s.

The C130 needs to do more visual circuits as the 'ILS to land' is not the usual method as we operate to more austere airfields in general & in particular the requirement to land on NVGs requires visual circuits after dark which can be rather late in summer - although that it is mitigated to some extent by flying circuits at 3000ft agl which gives a more representative profile for TALT whilst putting the ac higher over the potential complainants.

All adds up to a need to fly more in the visual cct which places us more in conflict with the neighbours. As I said, not an attempt to start a 'mine's longer than yours' thread but a recognition that the roles of the various types at Brize do not necessarily make them good bedfellows given the acknowledged difficulties the local populace has always had with noise. This was pointed out back in 2003 when the Lyneham closure was first announced but was pretty much ignored with a 'it'll all work out' kind of attitude. Besides, too many VSO careers where dependent on forcing the closure through in the face of all logic and common sense all to achieve some nominal cost 'savings' that will have been more than swallowed up by additional unforeseen costs.

The sensible thing would have been to leave Lyneham alone until the OOSD of the C130 & then close the station then if no use could be found for it. But no one would have been promoted on the back of that plan hence we find ourselves in the current mess & facing a potential £300 million of litigation for noise. That will certainly blow any 'savings'.....

Nutloose
They keep on repeating the same mistakes. Nobody has any memories of what happened. Either because the weren't there or cant be bothered to find out what they did before and how it affected people
In 1970 two Britannia Sqns, 22 aircraft, 99 and 511 came to Brize from Lyneham. There was no extra hangar space. Belfast majors were at Abingdon and Brit majors at Aldergrove The Hangar capacity was 6 bays in Base Hangar, three bays were taken with VC10 Base 1,2 and 3 servicing, two bays for Brit servicing, leaving one bay spare plus the hangar that would take 3/4 of a Brit. up to the start of the fin That was the 2nd hangar (from the Bampton road) The one that Jate uses, if they're still there.

There weren't any Married Quarters for BZN people until Phase one (Stanmore Cres style) and then Phase two, Robinson close style. Phase one BTW was built by RAF shifts from both lines (VC10& Belfast LSS and Brit.LSS) on their standdowns. Block of flats took 2 weeks. There wasn't enough MQs for those already at Brize as it was. Brize had Hirings/MQs on the Smith's estate in Witney, Long Hanbrough, (between Witney and Woodstock) Wantage, Cirencester, Bampton, Fairford, Highworth, Down Ampney, South Cerney. On top of that guys were renting houses all over the place, anywhere they could get a place for their families. MT had a bus service to match Oxford South Midland bus Co. Even after the MQ building programmes were complete there were people still living in half the places I mentioned above.

Base Hangar had around 4-500 men at least. The line shifts must have had 50 blokes ,all trades and ranks to each shift. Brize was massive, roughly 5000 blokes, I might be a bit on the low side there. I used to get most Friday afternoons off, if not the whole day, we had so much over capacity in men.

So the Brize fleet was 13 VC10 (after 809 left) 22 Britannias and 10 Belfasts. It wasn't quiet then. Pre flight eng. runs and the Belfast was a pain for falling down on them and lasted for hours. The local fliers were at least three, one of each type were prepped each night for the next day (Mon-Fri) and 4 routes before it got light was an easy night shift. People complain more than they did and know there is a fair chance of compensation. Back then it wasn't common practise unless the farm animals started giving birth every time there heard a jet.

I have it on good authority that the Britannia low level circuit was flown at 500 ft to the south of the airfield - with no avoids.

Thanks Vc10617,

The Lss guys built the quarters on standown, blimey I wouldn't fancy living in those, they must have been assembled with such love and care lol.

I actually have a VC10& Belfast LSS cloth line badge I got off someone on eBay, (though I was only VC10 LSS A Shift), cannot be many of those survive :)

I can understand people not complaining about the Ten noise even though it was louder then the Hercs, the Ten had been around for years and was something the local population had got used to like a pair of comfortable shoes, the noise of a Herc beating its way around the circuit is different, so they will notice it.

The 2 week build (flats) was just the shell. Pukka leckies, plumbers, chippies etc would finish them off.

BBC local news Oxfordshire tonight had another item on noise - base apparently not meeting MOD guidelines at night time although it is by day. Several interviews with locals in Brize Norton village (just on the other side of the fence) complaining that aircraft noise was 'intolerable'.

With the County Council plan to build 700 new homes in the village, and the new homes planned at nearby Bampton, complaints could get substantially worse in the future.

If the plans, which are opposed by the vast majority of the locals, were scrubbed because of the proximity to the base & the noise issue would they then consider it a reasonable trade-off or would they continue to complain, essentially to have their cake & eat it?

Camoron pledges to tackle RAF’s ‘unacceptable’ noise
 

It's OK, call me 'Dave' will sort out this noise problem himself..

Cameron pledges to tackle RAF?s ?unacceptable? noise (From Witney Gazette)

And Brize will buy new windows for all if this quote is to be belived.

A base spokesman said there was no “silver bullet” solution but it will offer free triple-glazed windows if noise is not cut to a tolerable level.

And it seems such a short time ago when servicemen were dying for this country and the nation seemed to support their efforts. Living near a recently abandoned transport base, I wonder what the reaction would be if the threat of "move reversal" was proffered, the loss to the local economy. I would welcome the whole shebang near me, especially that really nice sounding Voyager jobby. I suppose "Call me Dave" couldn't face his voters if that happened.

Next we will hear is when the 700 new houses near Brize are occupied by the new "British" Roma, who will arrive and obviously demand their right to triple glazing etc. I'm sure the "Huming rights" brigade are readying their troops for the court cases.

What was the saying ? "jet noise, the sound of freedom" ?

Smudge :mad:

The presence of RAF Brize Norton is a powerful counter-argument to the building of more houses around Carterton and also to the construction of London Oxford Airport whose SIDs would effectively ground all RAF aircraft.

Should Brize close, which is presumably what the locals would wish (big increase in their house prices) then the prospect of extensive house building and an airport larger than Heathrow on their doorstep could become reality.

They might then recall the phrase 'better the devil you know'.

Surely the answer, as Brize has been an active airfield for over 60 years, is for those who now complain about the noise,to sue the estate agents/solicitors who took their money when they bought their homes in the nearby villages. Few "career" homesteaders have complained :ok::ok:

Consider yourself(s) lucky, during my one month detachment to Brize during 1977 (ish), of an evening, we would have a VC10 and G-BOAD bashing the circuit and I'm still trying to figure out which was the noisiest whilst trying to watch television of an evening.

I think that experience may be the root cause of why I took up drinking :)

And I was on detachment from a top secret Wiltshire air base where we had 60 Fat Alberts stationed, oh to get back to the peace and quiet after a month at Brize :)

Slightly off thread but similar story:-

Thorney Island in the 60' and early 70s had a very well organised 'anti' lobby in the local area with a number of retired Admirals/Generals/Air Marshals at the head. The SDO's Orders even had instructions on Operation Knitting which was what to do if the locals tried to occupy the outer guardroom at the Deeps. OCU night flying had to be done in Libya / Malta to avoid antagonising the locals. The OCU used to carry out airdrop training at Tangmere, and a retired Admiral living on a hill on the approach had a theodolite in his garden and used to measure the height of the aircraft above his house such that crews had to delay their descent to drop height until they had passed his house, as if crews under training didnt have enough to think about.

One senior officer who stood out from the rest was Lt Gen Sir Brian Horrocks, described by Eisenhower as 'The outstanding British General under Monty' and well known in the 60s for presenting a TV series of Great Battles and WW2 documentaries. He used to wander around the village in an old combat jacket with a friendly smile - a real gent and a class above the others. One day he was in the pub in Emsworth when a bevy of these retired nimbeys were complaining about the RAF. Horrocks got up saying, 'Gentlemen, at Dunkirk you were asking where was the Air Force, now that you have them I suggest you put up with them', and walked out. I remember Horrocks vividly, dont remember the others , except for the grief they gave us and the fact they used their Service contacts to undermine the current generation of servicemen. One would have hoped that such people would have known better.

Aircraft and Noise
 

As a very junior member of the Rolls Royce Hucknall Flight Test Establishments staff in the 1970's working in the Noise Department we struggled to reduce noise emissions. With the introuduction of RB 211 we made real inroads into the problem. Forty years downstream I can still recall my introductory notes.

Public reaction to 'noise' is dependent on several variables

• Frequency as in an emitted frequency
• Duration
• Pitch

In the very broadest of terms the higher frequencies, particulaly of longer durations are the more annoying.

Atmosphere does attneuate to a greater degree than you might think. Wet draggy misty conditions acting as an efficient muffler

Perhaps a humidifier & mist generator is required for the Carterton area then?

There is a definite contrast between the attitudes of the locals around Lyneham & those around Brize, the former mostly very pro the RAF & the latter very anti. Having lived with the raucous noise of the VC10 it's the change to the C130 that has presumably caused the problem although Brize has always been difficult from a noise perspective, hence why they would send their ac to Lyneham to do much of their training - I can recall VC10s flying visual ccts at a weekend there, something they would not have been permitted to do at home base, at least not for many years.

Ken, we already have a London Oxford Airport:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ( I think it was called Kidlington when I worked there !!!););)

LOX is the proposed new 4 runway behemoth planned in the Vale of the White Horse to the SW of Abingdon - although unlikely to be built as it's in an AIAA & would adversely affect operations at Benson & Brize - the latter because many of the SIDs would route right over the top at low altitude.

Personally I think that the daft Oxfordshire airport proposal has only been tabled so that people will stop objecting to another equally wretched proposal - for an enormous reservoir in the same area.

I'm surprised that no-one has challenged the 'Oxford AIAA' yet. There's very little flying at Brize nowadays, Abingdon no longer has any flying units, Upper Heyford has closes, Kidlington doesn't have anything like the traffic levels of 20 years ago - so why is there still a need for an AIAA?

You could ask exactly the same question about the huge areas of danger and restricted airspace which were set up when we had thousands of military aircraft

Maybe because Brize ATC has pissed off that many local GA that there is a minor but major percentage is not talking to them. There holds are outside the CAS. And they want radar separation all the time on the traffic. Because a major minority aren't talking to them there is quite a bit of unknown traffic. And also traffic which is speaking to them but is refusing co-ordination.

Although making it an AIAA isn't really going to change that. But then again its not the first time that RAF ATC have done things with no real clue about how the civilian mind set works. An AIAA really does nothing for a civilian and as it doesn't have any requirements under law they will just continue as they are currently doing.

'There' holds aren't outside of class D, the SID is. And until the class D is extended up to the airway, it will remain so.

What's wrong with radar separation on a hundred million quid aircraft? Lyneham is shut now, can't you go play over that way? What is stopping you getting Traffic Service near to the RAFs main air transport hub?

:hmm:

The top of the Brize Class D CTR is at 3500' QNH. The holds are published as 2800'-FL80. Thus anyone holding between 3501' and FL80 is indeed outside Class D airspace....

you won't get a traffic service.

And they will actively control VFR traffic in class G away from the CAS even when visual with the traffic applying radar separation which is not required in class G.

And I wasn't playing I was working and not willing to get pissed about by someone who wants to keep a 5Nm buffer outside their controlled airspace in class G of sterile airspace.

If they need the room apply for it justify it and get it.

And they could well do with loosing their attitude while speaking to civi pilots. There is no requirement for civi's to speak to them or enter into any agreements with them.

And the military AIP being behind locked payment doors doesn't help matters one little bit.