I was at Waddo when they switched to plates and cutlery. IIRC personal issue stuff had to be handed in.

Took about 2 days before they ran out of cutlery as the troops didn't believe there was enough to go around and snaffled them from the servery.

PS, who remembers the one pint nylon ones you could get from NAAFI?

Having looked at the Waddo OM link I cannot believe how far standards have dropped in the Service. :eek:

Pontious I still have my plastic one pint mug from my days at Sharjah in 67. Bloody indestructible!!

I misread the thread title: "Paper Late, cried a voice from the crowd."

And at Sharjah everyone had a little lace doiley to put on their plastic mug of tea to keep the flies away

Well watered I presume and bet it tasted good.

From the Waddo OM website



I knew things were bad but I didn't think they had to resort to cannibalism :eek:

With reference to the comparisons with the Premier Inn above, it's hardly like with like is it? I stay in Premier Inns a lot on my travels (good VFM), and they rarely cost me less than fifty-sixty quid a night. I don't recall the accommodation component of my living in charges costing me £1800 a month? More like a tenth of that figure.

Don't get me wrong...I'm no fan of officers mess accommodation. I've stayed in rooms that would compare badly with Battersea Dogs Home, let alone a one star motel, but I guess you get what you pay for.

The two things that always got right up my nose when I lived in (and got me in hot water several times for my "unacceptable" comments in the suggestions book) were...

The willingness to splurge huge wads of dosh on the public rooms, whilst spending the square root of **** all on liver's-in rooms and facilities.

And, the mindless, jobsworth, you-can't-do-that obstruction anytime any liver in came up with good idea for making our life better (even when we were willing to pay for it).

I bet it has not changed either. With glorious hindsight I now realise I wasted wwwaaaaaayyyyy too much of my life, living in.

Live out in the community single chaps and chapesses. B*gger the cost.

I was hosting a group of Americans the other day at Waddo and was utterly embarrased by not only the paper plate situation, but the food was terrible. It lived up in every way to that American banter about dreadful British food. I was ashamed to have brought them into the Mess.

Waddington used to be fabulous for food, but with contractorisation it has gone beyond downhill. As for the H&S crap about being unable to wash up, what utter hoop. The company needs to grow up and focus on the delivery of the service. Paper plates in an Officers Mess is frankly not acceptable. This is not some pretentios Officers Standards issue that , but the OM is used to host influential people and such poor standard reflect on our Serivce and Country.

This is admin triv, but has wider repercussions. Something needs to be done!

I was accommodated at Mons Barracks Officers' Mess one time in the late seventies. My quarters consisted of a suite with separate bedroom and a sitting room furnished with a huge leather sofa and a large, solidly built bureau. There was a chap who shone my shoes and tidied up. Meals were served in a nice homely dining room - long mahogany tables with linen table cloths and napkins, bone chinaware and uniformed waitresses. My mess bill when I left came to a modest (1979) £30. The standard of the Garrison Sergeants' Mess at Aldershot wasn't far behind, though the accommodation didn't include a suite, just a well furnished bedroom on an upper floor. For living-in SNCOs at Northolt in 1974 the Sergeants Mess didn't include quarters: SNCOs were accommodated in single rooms in a separate barrack block, but the Mess building itself was well run with proper linen and waitress service of full three course meals.

It seems to me that someone is taking the p**s out of todays Officers and SNCOs. :(

I do hope this thread has made its way into the Air Command Ivory Towers. Whilst we can chuckle about paper plates and reminisce about washing mess tins, it is frankly sympotmatic of the general decline in standards across all the Services.

I have no doubt that someone will bang on about value for money and flexibility along with a whole raft of other crap management speak being used to dress up a decline in standards as being a good thing, but that is what this is - as MRAF pointed out. On what planet do we now think that a baguette, a packet of crisps and a bottle of fizzy chemicals is deemed to be an acceptable standard for routine catering? That's the sort of thing you used to get on exercise if you were lucky because it was easy to do from a logs point of view; it's not the sort of thing you get on a daily basis because some contractor thinks it's an easy way to make a quick profit.

Unless somebody does something drastic and does it quick, the rot will be irreversible - if it isn't already. This is an Officers' Mess FFS, not some motorway cafe.

In recent months I have ahd the mis-fortune to have needed to stay in the Mess at Waddo and the good fortune to visit a Danish military base and stay in their transit accommodation. The difference was unbelievable. Waddo - 1960s room that was in definite need to some TLC, toilets and showers a short walk down the corridor and PAYD breakfast in the same building a slightly longer walk down a corridor.

In Denmark the room was as good as many 3 star hotels I've stayed in. Ensuite, phone in room, comfortable bed, it even had a flat screen TV with a couple of English language channels - in fact only things missing were wifi and the minibar. Breakfast was in another bulding, a short walk across the car park, was also PAYD and was much better quality than the breakfast at Waddo.

I cannot believe that Waddo hasn't just got people doing washing up the traditional way - but its probably not in the contract. Paper plates maybe ok on ops, but for an MOB in the UK - just not acceptable. What a sad state of affairs. :sad:

so are staishes indifferent/ ignorant/ impotent/ indisposed?

Time was when a staish exercised control, benevolent or otherwise.

Seems a fair question. My last mess was Brize 1996 .......... no complaints worth making except the rigid heating on/ heating off by calendar, which resulted in a huge electricity bill for a fortnight in autumn as all livers-in had a heater and often a microwave, so cold could it be in the dining room at breakfast.

Glad I am retired.

In the mess that I live in during the week, the heating is only switched back on when a colonel (who does not live in) decides it is cold enough but absolutely not before 1 Oct. His argument is that the MOD needs to be seen to be making 'energy efficiency' savings and he personally wants to set the right example by leading from the front.

Roger that sir - so like most people, I'm now the proud owner of a 4kw heater that is plugged in from breakfast till bedtime. Returning to the mess in the dusk, you can see all the rooms with electric bar heaters as they have a nice warm glow to them :D

Also, now we are operating under PAYD, almost all livers in have their own fridges, microwaves, George Forman electric grills etc, because it is easier and cheaper (and warmer) to cook for oneself.

Yet another step on the path to progress!

RP ... Ironic as ISS are a Danish Company.

Always worth reading the AA ...

ISS Annual Accounts 2012

They are certainly making money ...

Surprise surprise they do school dinners ... Might have got the contracts mixed up :}

Seriously ...

Do the MOD hold regular "meaningful" Supplier Performance Meetings with these type of contracts based on performance data collected by the MOD and NOT the Supplier ? More importantly are such meetings held with Supplier Accountable Execs not middle/senior management ? Failure to deliver by the Supplier against defined/contracted KPI's SHOULD involve punitive fines/compensation.

With the greatest of respect there is no point in the PMC trying to do this at Station level ... he/she won't have sufficient leverage at whatever Rank.

So often is the case that there is a rush to write these type of contracts but little attention/value is seen in the subsequent performance management thereof :mad:

Yes ... I do have significant experience in this area ... I was once the COO for a Global IT Service organisation responsible, amongst other things, for all Supplier and Vendor Management activity purchased by us ...

Can anyone confirm that this is still the state of affairs at Waddington?

I've been overseas for a while and returned to the UK and spent a couple of days at an Army Mess 'in the south of England'. The behaviour of the livers-in was spretty ordinary but understandable. Nobody went to the grim bar, guys read the papers on their ipads in the ante-room, often with their MTP PCS legs draped over the arm chairs, whilst feeding Rupert the Lab high tea scones (to be fair, they made excellent dog biscuits)

Christ, it was awful. The food was dire (book two days ahead, please), the rooms gloomy and in need of an urgent redec, the carpets worn through in the corridors, the furniture was the old mahogoney and formica stuff from the 1970s and the showers had the tiles peeling from the walls and pools of stagnant water sat upon the uneven (and clearly infrequently cleaned) floor. When I paid my bill, there was a charge for 'changing the linen' and for use of the Mess washing machines - and well as 'extra messing' ie, having a third course in the evening. Gosh, livin' the dream.

Now I know the contractor, A*p*r*, have been there an awfully long time. I also know that washine machines and driers are now publically funded and this Army 'nonsense' of paying to have your bedlinen changed went out with the Arc, or so I supposed. Exactly the same thing happened when I stayed in the same Mess as SLIM about 6 years ago and took it up with the elderly Garrison Commander, who agreed that it was wrong and that he would get this changed. Nothing happend. I've written to the Garrison Commander, probably still the elderly FTRS Lt Col, asking why personnel staying in his messes are still incorrectly charged.

Will I ever willingly go and live in a Mess? Never in a month of Sundays. Fortunately for me, this is now unlikely...

Edited to add that a number of Wg Cdrs, Gp Capts and 1*s got their OBEs and CBEs out of CRL (catering retail & leisure) proposals between 2005 - 2009 and it can't be reversed because the saving made (cue dubious accounting) have been sucked up and the money ain't there. Some of the dimmer proposals - eg having the public paying to use our gyms, luckily fell by the wayside as far as I am aware - mainly because our gyms are sh!t and very few people would pay to use them, when, for a modest monthly fee, one can join a professionally run civilian gym in a clean and modern building (not a 1940s converted barrack block), with decent showers and changing facilities. I could go on, by I am trying to hold my head in my hands as I type!

Very early in my career [such as it was] I came up with a golden rule

NEVER STAY IN ACCOMMODATION THAT MRS LB WOULD NOT STAY IN.

Walk-outs included the staff hostel [sic[ at Aldermaston or was it Harwell, and RAF Church Fenton.

Detmold was marginal, but that was the company, not the mess.

I have a sneaky feeling that Sergeants' Messes may still be pretty good, as they have a well-developed knack for self-preservation.

Not from the NAAFI, they were for overseas, I was issued with one at Insworth in 1962, when I drew my KD for Akrotiri.

Seeing I got an 'accompanied passage' and lived out for the entire tour, I started using it as a shaving mug.

And 51 years later I still do! :ok:

A few years back, I was on a 2 week course at 'Defence' unit where students were put into derelict, sorry converted, houses at the back of the Mess. This was mid-November and if memory serves we had a cold snap that produced a layer of frost on the windows that not even the trusty 1250 could scrape off. Unfortunately, we also had no heating or hot water in the houses - boiler issues or such like - which lead to a very very cold first night.

When I went to report the issue to Mess reception (contractorised) I was told that it had been reported and would be fixed within the next 2 weeks. Apparently the contractors thought it was fine for us to stay in freezing accommodation with no hot water. I was lucky and lived an hour up the road so voted with my feet much to the irritation of the course director and the Mess manager. Explained to the Chief Clerk the sudden appearance of an unplanned for and unauthorised MMA bill on my return to unit, which after a bit of nodding, was processed.

As much as I hate to say it, because a. I had some very happy times in the Mess both as an O/Cdt and a JO and b. I do understand how Mess life contributes to the morale component, but frankly the state of most Messes these days is nothing short of a disgrace. You wouldn't let your dog linger on in such suffering, so why do we not just admit that the accountants have won again, Messes are too expensive to do properly and just move to a US-type system of people living off base with a social club on site. As I said, a good Mess will contribute massively to the morale of a unit and its operational effectiveness. Unfortunately all they seem to do these days is depress morale and cause much angst.

Melchett, like you, I enjoyed my life in the Mess as a Junior Officer and wish we could recreate that cameraderie - a cross between membership of a Lodge (apparently) and Animal House!


A couple of years back I visited a colleague who was undertaaking a fellowship at an Oxbridge College. He took college digs - excellent 2-room suite with its own bathroom and toilet - and serviced daily. Meals were taken in the Great Hall - albeit with a swipe card - but served - proper crockery, silverware and expected (and enforced) standards of dress and behaviour. The food was excellent and Formal Hall (which I attended as a guest) was as every bit impressive (and as fun) as a Dining In night of days of yore. The costs? The same (at the time) of a liver-in in a typical RAF (not Army) mess. Facilites and accommodation were well maintained and modern. The college in question had considered out-sourcing catering, but apparently anticipated that the loss of tradition and quality would not be worth the effort.

How can we get this wrong? All the concerns raised by other posters were considered over the last 8 years that CRL has been developed and now implemented. They were all dismissed.

Me too, the looks on their faces said it all.

Paper plates in any mess is unacceptable. My OP was not meant to come across as "ahhh, aren't officers precious" by any means.

What did we do before dishwashers? Give me a bowl and a sponge and I'll wash them myself!

Now there is a win win for the MOD, listen to the complaints, fine the contractor and I bet the complainants / unit would never see the funds as they would disappear into an MOD account.

Even reading the Waddo website, do they only offer two dishes? One a meat dish and one different?
Do you not still get the choice from about 10 or 12 different dishes as we used to get?

The Colonel dictating when the heating comes on reminds me of the head of the piggery at Bruggen Q, he would determine when his plods out on guard duty could go from shirt sleeve to jackets on, as it was all for one and one for all.... He had a thermometer to see if it was cold enough, 'twas a nice thermometer mounted by the window INSIDE his office.

That may be the case, but when the contractor continually gets fined, hopefully in the end they will see sense and things will improve.

Nope, and things now aren't the same as we used to have. It doesn't make financial sense to have 10 or 12 dishes on the menu, and even if there were, the chefs haven't the time to make them to order. That is unless you fancy having leftovers every day.

It is a sad fact of life that, after years of people complaining that they were paying for food that they were not eating, PAYD was seen as an alternative. Now people are eating out etc, again the contractor can't have too many options on the menu that aren't going to get eaten.

Nobody has mentioned yet that, as part of the contract, there is a gainshare agreement. Each mess should get a part of the contractors profits which get put back into the respective messes. I hope that this helps to buy a new dishwasher at Waddo OM!!

Here's a thought that came to me as I was out running with the hounds, come Mess A/EGMs, why not table a motion of no confidence in the contractors running the Mess? I can almost guarantee you would find at least 2 people suitably hacked off to act as proposer and seconder - force the Mess management to account for their actions - or lack of.

And if the likes of Aramark, ISS etc are publically listed, why not start sending a contingent from the Mess to raise questions at their AGM? I know you would never get anywhere, but as the general public generally views the Forces in a good light at the moment, it might at least cause a bit of shuffling in seats in much the same way that the you hear of pubs being boycotted after banning service personnel in uniform after parades etc.

The more I think about it, the more it irritates me - even as someone who lives out. I'm getting fed up of the average serviceman, of whichever cap badge, being seen off by poorly written, one-sided contracts forced upon us to save money and get some shiny-arsed desk jockey a promotion and an OBE for their efforts. There's bugger all we can do about kit, and even less about pay and pensions, but damn it the Mess is something we can and should kick up a fuss about. Assuming we are still bound by QRs to be Mess members, and seeing as we have to pay for the privilege, if the contractors want to treat the Mess as a commercial concern, then 2 can play at that game. You wouldn't put up with an awful meal served on a paper plate in a restaurant that has also charged you for admission so why should we put up with it in OUR Messes.

It's time to start lobbing a few grenades at Mess A/EGMs. It worked at Army HQ a couple of years back when we voted with our feet and the contractors called an EGM to complain they were losing money, so there's no reason it can't work again. A few votes of no confidence at AGMs and I bet you people will start to take note.

Surely the best course would be to eat no course, if everyone refused to dine in off paper plates then I'm sure they would have it fixed tomorrow as their sales ceased.

Someone should link the thread to the Sun news desk, can see the headlines now..

Katie Price my inside story....

Oops sorry, wrong headline :E

RAF contem plates new dishwasher.

:O

Why not detail a few erks, on jankers, to repair to the OM pdq, for dishwashing duties?
Would've happened in my day...harumph!:(

Have a Greek dining in night plate smashing party, you won't have to wash them then.

goudie - it would probably infringe their human rights :*

I quite liked the system a lot of army regimental messes used to operate. You walked in for lunch, which was served at a long table. You sat at the next empty seat, thus could be chatting through the meal to a subaltern or the colonel, depending on who had arrived before you, so cliques were avoided and strangers or newcomers didn't feel neglected. You were then served with lunch - no choice - but it always seemed good, as the chefs didn't have to try and prepare 12 different choices (see above). I don't think the army could have had vegetarians in those days, if so I guess they went hungry! Meals were served by soldiers who were called servants (very un-PC these days). Don't ever remember seeing any paper plates!

Autre temps - autre moeurs.

I wonder what the possibility of opening a McDonald's or Burger King franchise on base would be - as if in a civilised country, say, a few thousand miles West of here.

I'm note sure MacDonalds, Burger King and civilised belong in the same sentence. :p

Paper Plates!
 

WW - as nice as the odd burger is, it's hardly a healthy option. There are already enough overweight and unfit 20-somethings waddling their way to work everyday. They don't need any help in piling on the pounds.

The Mess as we all knew and largely loved is dead and isn't going to be resurrected anytime soon. As of 01/09/13, I no longer pay Mess Subs and told the Mess Accountant that I would pay my subs in another Mess - she (a Sodhexo employee) didn't care and, quite frankly, neither do I. The PMC didn't care either - it's a garrison mess which I use once a month, if that.

As somebody who has never lived in or indeed only had occasional cause to use any mess while on a visit, I am stunned at what is being reported here.

A few years back the media went to town on the condition of married quarters. This issue is no different, and needs to be brought to a wider audience. Not just the paper plates, but the whole sorry management and the results of it; abysmal living conditions and armed forces personnel being forced to live out to maintain an adequate standard of accommodation.

I've worked in hospitals where ISS were in charge of domestic and catering services and was never that impressed, so I can't say I'm too surprised at their management of MoD catering. But it is an absolute disgrace and they -and other companies and those who negotiated the contracts- should be ashamed of themselves.

But they just don't give a ****......
As a company all they respond to is financial, if at the end of the year they are ahead of projection then it's tea and medals all round

Stuff the end user - cheaper, leaner, more profit.

In the mess where I live during the week, had a comment in the dining room book albeit about 6 months ago 'Mouldy Bread' the reply was 'It won't happen again'. Since then I have had mouldy bread and the comment book has had another two comments on the same subject. ISS mess not as close to the runway as the other mess, where a certain lady is making her last flight today.

For about a year I had burger & chips for lunch, in the XW O's Mess - paper plates and all - every weekday. Didn't exercise, didn't put on weight, made me happy as it was the best thing on the menu. I just felt sorry for the sweaty fools in the gym and chisellers who ate at their desk. Thankfully I now have a job I enjoy and don't have to 'worry' about all that messing nonsense.

Anyway, an element of commercial competition wouldn't go amiss, which is the real point I was making. And not a fricking costa coffee cafe either.

I saw this coming in the 1990s when "New Management Strategy" (NMS) was introduced. In addition to the budget control being given to individual units, massive savings had to be found. It stopped the Squadron Commanders doing their proper job (i.e. commanding the squadron!) because they suddenly had to become accountants and save their careers at the word processor.

The last straw for me (18 years service) was when my leave passes were continually being rejected for no apparent reason except "exigencies of the service". I found out later there was no money in the budget that year for motor mileage so the Boss had come up with a cunning, career saving plan to deny people the chance to put in a claim. I gave back my uniforms in 1994. I took the leave owing, the resettlement course and everything owing to me. I felt fully justified in sending the station a bill for 28 days rate 1s in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

Forgive me if I'm way off here ...

Step 1

What's wrong with the PMC eMailing the Waddo ISS General Manager (cc'ing his Boss - see URL Link) and asking for a written explanation as to why the service within the Officers Mess has been so poor as mentioned here. Specifically asking for an explanation for the use of paper plates v U/S Dishwasher. The request is perfectly reasonable and could provide useful context for taking matters further. It's also not unreasonable to seek a commitment as to when "normal service" is to be resumed (I assume some kind of action like this will have already been taken ?).

RAF Waddington ISS Team

Step 2

Contemporaneous with Step 1 ... a member of the Mess Committee, on behalf of the PMC, gives a quick call to DE&S and ask for guidance on the process of giving feedback on a MOD Supplier who you believe is delivering a substandard service. But I guess the person making the call to DE&S will need to be persistent ... if there isn't a process ... then ask how such Supplier Performance metrics are collated, reviewed and by whom ... and keep pushing down that line until you have a PoC.

I have my suspicions that DE&S will have their resources focused on the sexy supply side ... Aircraft, Ships and Bullets ... however the ISS contract will be of significant size to merit Industry Standard Supplier Performance Management.

For goodness sake, how long does it take to repair or replace a bl@@dy dishwasher, or get temporary staff to wash the dishes?