RAF size and balance
 

Whilst reading the UK is the 4th largest military thread I thought I would have a look how the RAF compares

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...orces-2013.pdf

Assuming it is correct I find it interesting reading.

It suggests the RAF is the 10th largest air force.

Flying in the face of the perceived wisdom that the RAF is just a fast jet club I see that Turkey (in 10th place for number of combat aircraft) has 331 fast jets so I wonder how far we are down the list as we have 177 fast jets. France has about 290 in fast jets in service. Germany, Greece and Italy all have more than we do!

In fact it seems to me the ratio of combat to support/training types is far too low.

Thoughts?

I thought we were correcting the ratio by civilianising the training aircraft?

Count up the number of Air Marshals.

...thats power

wets

At one particular high powered visit where I was acting as a doorman I remarked to a visiting wg cdr that I had counted 21 stars so far.

He was so unamused that he reported me to my Boss where I duly received a ritual bollocking.

I am pleased to relate that the wg cdr was medically discharged not long after. There is a doG :)

The imbalance starts with the number of commissioned officers currently serving, a rediculous number compared to non-commisioned personnel.

Far too many Gp Capt nif, nat and trivia, Wg Cmd A,B & C and Sqn Ldr tea, white, one sugar.

Have a look at the Air Force List on the Manning website, it's a joke!

Well I hope they all subscribe to the Royal Air Force Club!

Jayc

The problem that you state stems from the fact that if we want representation in NATO, Joint Service organisations (PJHQ, JHC, etc...) and other such organisations then we have to match 'like for like'. If you post in an equally competent but 2-4 ranks lower individual then they will likely get nowhere due to the rank conscious environment in all Armed Forces.

Furthermore, one could argue that there are too many Flt Sgts and WOs kicking about. Why do most Admin Wgs have a SWO, a Chief Clerk, a WO catering and often a WO Chief Cashier? Normally these are backed up by Flt Sgts as well.

I think that it all lies with career progression and it is normally easy for a Flt Sgt/WO/Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr to do the job these days on a computer that used to involve a plethora of LACs/SACs/Cpls to do.

Finally, the RAF has always been SNCO/WO/officer top-heavy in the past due to the all-officer/all-WO/all-NCO aircrew policy - it's got even worse in recent years with the transition to more officer aircrew that matches the policy of most NATO Air Forces.

Would I change the current constitution of officers:other ranks? Probably not.

LJ

I'd ask if the RAF and the RN and to much the same extent the Army have changed to take into account the level of education that many NCOs (not just SNCOs) have attained prior to joining or during their service.

I know of a guy at Brize who has just been accepted onto an MSc course. He's also just been given a date for his promotion to Sergeant.

How common was this even twenty years ago?

AA

Not a dig at your individual example, but don't forget that since Nu-Labour's 'everyone get a degree' mantra, there are an awful lot of degrees in Under-Water Basket Weaving out there!

Furthermore, in yesteryear, most aircraft engineers had degrees or HNDs.

LJ :ok:

Leon Jab'

Surely it should be down to an individuals ability not their rank. If it were down to ability, half the Air Force List would be gone. Majority are just hoop jumpers only looking after themselves. Poor excuse for made up positions within MoD and stations.

Also, how many Wg Cmd's and Sqn Ldr accompany ever Gp Capt?

Degrees of dubious worth, or appropriateness, are hardly a new thing. I remember sitting in a classroom at Cosford, on my Air Radar Technicians course, having the finer points of waveguide theory "explained" by an RAF Education officer. She was very proud of her Zoology degree.......

jayc, are you reading our replies? What part is international comparisons do you not understand? You seem to ignore those replies or parts thereof that do not fit your argument.

To give an example to LJs post, I was on a particular NATO committee for 3 years, that met 3 times per year. As we stayed in hotels in different NATO countries, including two not in the unified structure, and for security reasons, we wore civilian clothes. The personnel from the host country wore uniform. This had the advantage of giving an RAF NCO (non-voting) the same right to be heard as the voting members at sqn ldr and wg cdr equivalent.

On one occasion I committed the RAF to a particular and expensive exercise. I was challenged by an RNlAF major that not have the authority to s commit the RAF as I was too junior. Other nation representatives used to return to their HQs to report. I had taken the precaution to get advance authority provided the appropriate criteria were met. They were.

Chicken or egg?

I always find it mildly ironic that on threads like this, people sometimes see fit to slag off the Officer corps of the services, making hugely disparaging assessments about their ability and capability to do the job and implying that most are utterly useless jobsworths.

Were I to post suggesting a view that large numbers of the non commissioned elements of the military were useless idle layabouts who, based on the regular flow of stories about Captains Table or AGAI issues are often criminal in their behaviour and who had serious alcohol and discipline problems, and we could easily sack half without noticing, I suggest there would be outrage from the same people who slag off the Officers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but....

Commissioned Officers select which officer candidates have the required qualities and abilities to successfully pass training and receive their commissions, correct?

Also no NCO would ever be promoted without the express support and approval of their Officer Commanding.

Therefore, Officers select Officers, and Officers decide which airmen, soldiers or ratings are suitable to be NCO's and progress through the ranks.

Jimlad1, if NCO's are alcohol abusing, idle layabouts with discipline problems then we know where the blame lies. Right? :E

Size of the RAF in the olden days.
 

This is good.

ROYAL AIR FORCE PAGEANT - British Pathé

A Royal Air Force Pageant!! Even the title got me going....smoke bombs, burning balloons and real crashing aeroplanes.
Before the H&S at Work Act 1974, obviously.

The size and balance must be wrong if we can't afford a MPA capability....

No, you are wrong.

A commissioned officer, who is a higher rank, trains and selects. However the training is also carried out by SNCO and they report on those officer candidates. The decision is taken perhaps 2 or 3 ranks further up.

An NCO is reported on by a senior NCO or a higher rank. There is then a second reporter who happens to be an officer but we are really looking as one who is of higher rank which just happens to be an officer. The decision to promote is taken perhaps 2 or 3 ranks further up.

Therefore, Officers who are senior select Officers, and Officers or SNCOs who are seniordecide which airmen, soldiers or ratings are suitable to be NCO's and progress through the ranks.

SNCOs have an essential role in both training and reporting of both officer candidates and airmen. I think it wold be true to say that a bad report by an SNCO will carry equal weight as a bad report higher up the tree, perhaps more so even.

It is not a simple officers only system but one of rank seniority.

Thanks PN. I was just being facetious ......

When it comes to pay, a Fg Off - Flt Lt gets about the same money as a Sgt - Flt Sgt - WO (in fact the WO is ~2k more expensive).

http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...D53017136B4C64

LJ :ok: