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PoW. An unfortunate acronym in a JDF thread.
(For those of you playing at home, it's the Prince of Wales!...took me a moment.) |
Not sure giving them the PoW would be politic, not after what they did to the last one.....
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Need somebody who can read Japanese to gather any more details from the original article. Is “mother ship” a better euphemism than “through-deck cruiser”? Alert 5 » Japan?s LDP is calling the proposed aircraft carrier as mother ship - Military Aviation News Japan’s LDP is calling the proposed aircraft carrier as mother ship Japan’s Liberal Democratic Party has unveiled its proposal for the country’s mid term defense plan. It urged the government to procure the F-35B and upgrade the Izumo-class to support the fighter. Instead of calling the upgraded vessel an aircraft carrier, the party is now calling it a “multi-purpose mother ship”. |
Wonder if they want a couple of bigger "mother ships"?
We could cut the middle man out and supply direct. I'm sure they could get a decent price on a part delivered batch of 48 B models too. Everyone would be a winner? |
Originally Posted by typerated
(Post 10157932)
Wonder if they want a couple of bigger "mother ships"?
We could cut the middle man out and supply direct. I'm sure they could get a decent price on a part delivered batch of 48 B models too. Everyone would be a winner? The heavy mob will be around shortly for daring to suggest we don't need several Carrier Battle Groups.................. |
In Japanese an aircraft carrier is called 航空母艦 (Kōkū bokan) which translates as aviation mother ship or 空母 (Kūbo) which is basically sky/air mother.
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Japan avoids flak by refusing to call flattop ?aircraft carrier??The Asahi Shimbun Japan avoids flak by refusing to call flattop ‘aircraft carrier’ Although a Japanese naval vessel may be retrofitted to carry fighter jets, the ruling parties will call the Izumo a "multi-purpose operation destroyer" to avoid criticism that use as an aircraft carrier would violate the pacifist Constitution. Members of the ruling parties’ working team on revising the National Defense Program Guidelines, which the government expects to approve later this month, reached a consensus on what to call the Izumo-class destroyers during a meeting on Dec. 5. The Abe administration has been considering retrofitting the Maritime Self-Defense Force's Izumo into an effective aircraft carrier that can deploy U.S.-made F-35B stealth fighter jets, which can take off and land vertically. However, an issue on how to maintain compatibility of the use with the war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution will likely remain a problem with the Izumo becoming a de facto offensive aircraft carrier, the first in the Japanese fleet. The 248-meter-long vessel would be reliant on its complement of F-35Bs, resulting in exceeding the defensive nature as specified in the Constitution. In the meeting, Defense Ministry officials explained the plan of thickening the decks of two Izumo-class destroyers, which carry helicopters, and making other adjustments so that F-35Bs can be launched from there, according to a source who attended the meeting. The government has taken a stance that Japan is not allowed to operate an attack aircraft carrier, which would mark a departure from the principle that the nation should be limited to maintaining necessary self-defense capabilities. Lawmakers therefore discussed an official name of the new carrier in keeping in line with the Constitution. A proposal to call the vessel a “defensive aircraft carrier” also emerged from the Liberal Democratic Party but Komeito, the ruling LDP's junior coalition partner, opposed the idea, arguing that using the term of “aircraft carrier” is unacceptable. The LDP’s proposal for the National Defense Program Guidelines compiled in May features a term of “multi-purpose operation mother ship.” However, Komeito frowned on the idea, saying that the expression of “bokan" (mother ship) conjures up the image of “kubo" (aircraft carrier). The LDP and Komeito finally agreed on calling the Izumo-class destroyer a “multi-purpose operation destroyer,” according to participants at the meeting. “(The LDP and Komeito) shared a common view of enabling the carrier to be used for multi-purpose operations within the scope of recognizing the vessel as a destroyer,” said Itsunori Onodera, a former defense minister who heads the ruling parties' working group dealing with the guideline revisions, after the meeting. The two parties also shared their views and opinions over the need to introduce 100 or so F-35s in the future during the meeting. Approximately 40 of the fighters are expected to be models that can take off from short distances, with an eye to operating them off the deck of the retrofitted Izumo........ |
Buying 24 - 36 F-35B's and landing them on an "Izumo"as a part of the deal wouldn't really affect Japan's overall F-35 capability but would add some expensive headaches for the PLAN
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Fine looking ship ! |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10331680)
Japan avoids flak by refusing to call flattop ‘aircraft carrier’ Did no one suggest Through Deck Cruiser? |
Originally Posted by Bing
(Post 10332522)
Did no one suggest Through Deck Cruiser?
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New Attack Helicopters For Japan Probably Will Go To Sea | Vertical Flight content from Aviation Week New Attack Helicopters For Japan Probably Will Go To Sea Japan’s prospective requirement for its New Attack Helicopter is likely to include shipboard operation and entry into service no later than the mid-2020s. Six companies are preparing to bid with widely varied offerings when a formal requirement is issued: Airbus, Bell, Boeing, Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI), Leonardo and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI). At this early stage, the defense ministry merely has sought information for a possible acquisition for 30-50 attack helicopters to replace 59 Bell AH-1S Cobras. They are survivors of 90 built by Fuji Heavy Industries, now Subaru, in 1979-2000. The prospective production figure, in-service date in the mid-2020s and need for operation at sea were in a request for information issued in May, industry sources say. A key consideration for the ministry is the need to reinforce or recover conquered remote islands in the chain that stretches southwest toward China. KHI wants to base an offering on the twin-engine OH-1 observation helicopter, industry sources say. KHI needs a new engine as the poor reliability of the current 660-kW (885-hp) MHI TS1-M-10 has caused the OH-1 to be grounded since August 2015, according to local media and industry sources. Honeywell tells the Nikkei newspaper it is working with KHI to improve the OH-1’s engine. This appears to be an elliptical way of saying the two companies will replace it, since MHI would be the company to cooperate with Honeywell on improving the TS1-M-10....... MHI could propose the Sikorsky UH-60 in a heavy-armament derivative that the U.S. company is supplying to the United Arab Emirates. MHI displayed a model of the concept, with a long stub wing on each side of the upper fuselage. The UH-60 in this configuration can still carry soldiers. An MHI official at the show said this capability could be useful for securing ground. The two U.S. contenders are each offering their current production attack helicopters: the Bell AH-1Z Viper, unrelated to the AH-1S except in name and appearance; and the Boeing AH-64 Apache. Depending on how serious Japan is about shipboard operation, the Viper, designed for the U.S. Marine Corps, may have a strong advantage. The design resists corrosion and has radiation hardening to protect systems from powerful naval radars, notes Bell’s John Woodberry. Those features will be less valuable if Japan wants to send the new helicopters to sea only occasionally and briefly....... Leonardo’s offering would be the new AW249, which has been under development for the Italian Army since 2016. Full operational capability for the 7–8-metric-ton aircraft is due in 2025, implying entry into service around 2022 or 2023. That program timing looks about right for Japan. Leonardo is designing the AW249 so customers can adapt it for other operations, says the head of the company’s Japanese business, Andrew Hill. Japan’s expected shipboard operation will require some maritime features........ |
Always remembering that she was designed as a helicopter-carrying submarine destroyer.
If that concept is to continue on through, such new helicopters should be described as having a search and destroy role, avoiding use of the politically inflammatory attack word. :oh: |
I wonder if this order for F35s puts an end to the suggestion of an F22/F35 hybrid for the JASDF?
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Defense Ministry OKs purchase of next-generation U.S. fighter jets?The Asahi Shimbun Defense Ministry OKs purchase of next-generation U.S. fighter jets The Defense Ministry on Aug. 16 formally approved the purchase of 42 F-35B stealth fighter jets from the United States at a cost of about 14 billion yen ($132 million) each. The government indicated late last year that it intended to acquire the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, but no formal decision had been made until now about which model to purchase........ The Defense Ministry received a proposal from the U.S. government about the F-35B in June that confirmed the aircraft met all the specifications Japan is interested in. Budgetary amounts will be set aside for 18 of the jets through the end of fiscal 2023. As yet, there are no specific plans for the payment of the remaining 24 jets. Defense Ministry officials said the STOVL aircraft would be able to land and depart from even short runways. Plans are in the works to refit two Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyers to allow the aircraft to be used on those ships. |
The Japanese navy advances in small steps - you can see this here - buy 18 , try them out and then maybe buy another 24................
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Interesting that they seemed to have backed away from final assembly. Although they will be heavily involved in upgrades and maintenance, Japan had always wanted to keep involved in production to keep a small base of talent going in country.
Imagine they have been following the US Marine B's at Okinawa with keen interest. |
U.S. fighter jets eyed as 1st users of retrofitted Izumo carrier?The Asahi Shimbun U.S. fighter jets eyed as 1st users of retrofitted Izumo carrier The government has been caught in a lie over its plans to retrofit the Izumo destroyer and effectively transform the vessel into an aircraft carrier. Officials initially presented the project as simply one that would strengthen the nation's ability to defend outlying islands and secure the safety of Self-Defense Force pilots by reducing their flight times. When Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya was asked by opposition lawmakers in March if U.S. fighter jets would be allowed to use the Izumo, he stated that only if the aircraft had no closer landing points while flying out at sea. It now turns out that Japanese officials then informed their U.S. counterparts that U.S. fighter jets would likely be the first to use the Izumo for landings and take-offs. Improvements to the Izumo deck and other measures to allow aircraft to land and take off from the ship will finish in fiscal 2020. Another MSDF destroyer, the Kaga, will also be retrofitted, with plans calling for completion in fiscal 2022. The government has also approved a plan to purchase U.S.-made F-35B fighter jets which have short take-off and vertical landing capabilities. The F-35B jets will be mainly used on the Izumo and Kaga, but the aircraft will not be deployed until after fiscal 2024. That leaves open the possibility of at least a three-year period when the Izumo would be capable of being used as an aircraft carrier, but with the Air SDF having no such aircraft in its arsenal. According to several government sources, when Gen. Robert Neller, who was then commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, visited Japan in March, Defense Ministry officials briefed him on the plans to retrofit the Izumo and said U.S. military F-35B jets would likely be the first to use the Izumo after it became a flattop. They asked for U.S. cooperation and advice in the operation of the F-35B jets. The U.S. jets would likely use the Izumo during joint training exercises with the SDF as well as when U.S. jets faced an emergency situation requiring immediate landing. The sources said that Neller promised to provide the necessary support........ |
Is this really news? Did ANYONE not think the USA would trial F-35B's on these " slightly converted, modestly upgraded cross-river ferries"
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Japan unveils plan to develop Mage Island into FCLP for CVW 5 and JSDF F-35Bs ? Alert 5
Japan unveils plan to develop Mage Island into FCLP for CVW 5 and JSDF F-35Bs The Japanese government has unveiled its plan on how to develop Mage Island, off Kagoshima Prefecture, into a Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) facility for Carrier Air Wing 5 (CVW 5) of the U.S. Navy and Japanese F-35Bs. Tokyo will pay $151 million to the owner of the island and an environment impact assessment will be carried out this fall. There will be two runways, a hangar, and a fuel facility at the base. The main runway is about 8,00 feet long, and the secondary is about 6,000 feet long. About 150 to 200 Self Defense Force personnel are to be stationed there. Construction will take 4 years. The base will be resupplied by JGSDF MV-22s. Currently, U.S. Navy pilots practise simulated aircraft carrier landings at the FCLP at Iwo Jima, which is 1,400km from their base in MCAS Iwakuni. The new FCLP at Mage will be cut the distance down to 400km. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....085f1d630.jpeg |
JS Kaga hip to be square on sea trial after her modification to support JMSDF carrier aviation F-35B operations.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3cf10be2b.jpeg |
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...-fighter-jets/
Japan Puts Helicopter Carrier Kaga On Sea Trials After Major Modifications To Operate The F-35B Fighter Jets |
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../109202607.cms
Eye on China: Japan launches first full aircraft carrier since WWII Japan has achieved a noteworthy milestone in its military modernization efforts by converting the warship Kaga into the country's inaugural full-fledged aircraft carrier since World War II. Previously designated as a helicopter carrier, the Kaga has undergone substantial enhancements to accommodate the deployment of the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, signaling a transformative phase in Japan's defense capabilities amid escalating regional tensions. The unveiling of the upgraded Kaga at the Kure naval base in Hiroshima signifies Japan's efforts to enhance its maritime strength…… https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/poli...240409-179549/ New Deck Unveiled on MSDF Helicopter Carrier Kaga; Modification Will Let Fighter Jets Take Off The Maritime Self-Defense Force showed the multi-role helicopter carrier Kaga to the press on Monday at its Kure Base in Kure, Hiroshima Prefecture, after first-stage modification work to make it capable of accommodating fixed-wing fighter jets was completed. The modification is to make the helicopter carrier also capable of operating as a de facto aircraft carrier.…. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....659a48ea7.jpeg |
No ski jump? What are the implications of that in terms of performance of the F-35B?
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The back end is covered in JATO bottles..................
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
(Post 11635351)
No ski jump? What are the implications of that in terms of performance of the F-35B?
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Originally Posted by downsizer
(Post 11635430)
Doesn't seem to concern the USMC.
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
(Post 11635434)
Are lengths of the take off run comparable? I am assuming STOL rather than VTOL
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d3c40a23d5.gif |
Some info about F-35B STOs from a FLAT DECK or a Ski Jump.
JSF programme to proceed with UK-specific land-based carrier trials Gareth Jennings 09 Jul 2012 http://www.janes.com/events/exhibiti...e-proceed.aspx "...Wilson [BAE Systems lead STOVL test pilot Peter 'Wizzer' Wilson] said the advantage of the 'ski jump' launch method is in the extra time it gives the pilot on take-off. "The real benefit is one of timing. Once airborne you are flying upwards rather than horizontal, and this gives you extra time to think if something should go wrong," he explained. In addition, Wilson noted that the 'ski jump' saves approximately 100 to 150 ft of deck run over the standard 'flat top' carrier deck. "Everything we have seen in modelling is that [the 'ski jump'] is the best way to get this aircraft airborne," he said...." ______________ Blue Sky OPS 26 April 2012 AIR International F-35 Lightning II http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/downl...e.php?id=28256 "Mark Ayton spoke with Peter Wilson, a former Royal Navy Sea Harrier pilot and now STOVL lead test pilot at NAS Patuxent River... ...F-35B Take-off Options The F-35B STOVL variant has a range of take-off options using different modes to suit the basing. Take-offs from a ship, with either a flat deck or one with a ski jump, are also possible with a mode for each scenario. These are short take-off scenarios that can be achieved at speeds as low as 50kts with a deck or ground run of no more than a 200ft (60m). In the same mode, a take-off as fast as 150 knots is possible if the weight of the aircraft requires that speed. If the aircraft is light it can take off at a slow speed and faster when heavy. Take-off at speeds as low as 5, 10, 15, 20kts (9, 18, 27 and 36km/h) are also possible, each of which is effectively a vertical take-off while moving forward. There are different ways of rotating the aircraft in STOVL mode, including the usual ‘pull on the stick’. Other ways are by pressing a button or programming a ground distance required after which, the aircraft control law initiates the rotation and selects the ideal angle for climb-out...." ______________________ RAMP UP Deck-mounted ski-jump assembly marks key step toward U.K. carrier-based JSF operations, Aviation Week & Space Technology / 19 Aug 2013 pp.33-34 “As a new phase of ship-borne testing of the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter gets underway on the amphibious assault vessel USS Wasp, British shipbuilders are assembling the ski-jump launch ramp on HMS Queen Elizabeth - the first of two new JSF-dedicated aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy. The 200-ft.-long ramp is the longest ever fitted to a carrier and, like the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers (QEC) themselves, is the first of its type to be purpose-designed from the outset for F-35 operations. Angled at 12.5 deg., the ramp will be 20-ft. high and is designed to reduce the required deck roll on takeoff by up to 50%, or allow an increased payload of up to 20%. The ramp achieves this by boosting vertical velocity, giving the aircraft a ballistic launch profile that provides it with additional time to accelerate to flying speed...." __________________________ “...Onboard the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers, the aircraft would take off at its maximum weight of nearly 27 tonnes using a UK-developed ski-jump,...” 2204.62lbs = 1 tonne 59,535lbs = 27 tonnes [Wing Commander Hackett explained] ETS Winter 2012-13 ETS winter 2012_13 LIGHTNING STRIKES _______________________ Roles F-35B Lightning II http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/f35j...ikefighter.cfm "...maximum weapon payload of 6 Paveway IV, 2 AIM-120C AMRAAM, 2 AIM-132 ASRAAM & a missionised 25mm gun pod [[b]no longer being purchased]... _________________ Ship Shape — F-35/QEC simulator - PAUL E EDEN; AEROSPACE TESTING INTERNATIONAL Sep 2014 "300 Take-off run in feet from QEC for lightly loaded F-35B 800 Take-off run in feet from QEC for fully loaded F-35B" ____________________ Jumping Jack Flash July 2014 unknown author; AIR International F-35 Special Edition “…STO-ing… …There are three ways to conduct a short take off (STO) in the F-35B: stick STO, button STO – and auto STO. “That’s a completely automated way to STO the aircraft off the flight deck. You punch in a distance and the aircraft will auto rotate to its optimal fly-out condition. It’s all based on distance: we know where the aircraft is spotted [before it starts its take-off run] and where it should start its actual rotation,” explained Rusnok. “Unlike a Harrier, which launches off the end of the ship flat, the F-35 rotates at about 225 feet from the bow, sits on two wheels until it gets to the end of the ship and actually takes off, a much different process to a Harrier. From a pilot perspective, you lose some sight of the front of the ship; in a Harrier you can see all the deck. But that’s all part of optimising a 35,000lb aeroplane to get off the ship compared to the Harrier, which is only 16,000 to 25,000lb.” With stick STO the pilot controls the take-off by pulling back on the stick, holding it there and then rotating to the optimal pitch angle to fly off. In button STO, the pilot uses a trim switch which rotates the aircraft when pushed in, activating it when the aircraft passes the yellow STO rotation line positioned 225 feet from the bow of the ship. “That was a temporary marking applied on the flight deck for this trial and is now being permanently installed on the ship with lighting,” explained Rusnok. “It’s based on optimising the performance of the aircraft and its flying qualities, so we can get the aeroplane off with the maximum amount of nozzle clearance and performance. The STO line is our visual cue to either pull the stick aft or hit the button; or if you’re on automated STO you should start seeing the aeroplane’s flight controls moving by the line, otherwise the pilot can intervene and pull back on the stick. We’ve never had to intervene.” The pilot also has command of the throttle. Two power setting options are available for takeoff: Mil STO and Max STO, as Maj Rusnok explained: “When you taxi to the tram line you stay in mode one, the conventional flight mode. You convert the aircraft into mode four, the STOVL flight mode, and it takes about 15 seconds or so for the doors to open up and the lift fan to engage. “Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four. “It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”... ...Maj Rusnok said the take-off was very much like that ashore, with very little sink off the end of the deck. “The aeroplane is ridiculously powerful in STOVL mode. Just raw, unadulterated power.” ________________________ Salty Dogs & Funky Jets - Oct 2015 Mark Ayton; Air International OCTOBER 2015 Vol.89 No.4 "…Ski Jump Trials ...Sqn Ldr Edgell explained an interesting fact about the takeoff: “You can be lined up three, four, five hundred feet back from the start of the ramp and as you slam the throttle forwards, the jet doesn’t know it’s about to go up the ski jump. It waits for certain triggers to alert it to the fact it’s going off the ski jump, at which point its flight control system moves the horizontal tails and the nozzles into the optimum position. It needs to hit 45 knots going up the ramp. “The throttle needs to be above 65% ETR, with 6 degrees of attitude and a pitch rate of 6 degrees per second. At that point it moves all of the effectors into the right place...." CVF STO Ski Jump Deck F-35B Sim Details Pilot [Pete Kosogorin BAE test pilot: “...STO 800 feet with FULL operational load [F-35B CVF off Ski Jump]...” |
Very informative. Thank you.
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Fascinating stuff, indeed.
Mog |
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