5F6B thanks for that.

Jacko totally agree with you, you would of think they would have changed the format to reflect that as with Para and Glider wings, not only has it devalued ours, I had been looking at them and thinking where have I seen that idea before with the Blue Laurel leaf..
It would appear all RAAF Pilots are also RPAS pilots.


http://www.thehistorybunker.co.uk/acatalog/RAAF.jpg

http://militaria-sales.com.au/images/RAAF-PILOT.JPG

It is a different badge; it might be subtly different, but it's still different!

After all, they may not have done the same degree of training that us bronze/brown-laureled chaps have, and they may not have been exposed to the same risk, but they're still doing an incredible job.

These guys are captains of RAF aircraft in complex, tactical airspace. They're as responsible for flight safety and conduct as the captain of a manned aircraft; and while they might not die in a mid-air, they'd still be responsible for other deaths, which isn't to be taken lightly. We don't devalue a Typhoon mate because he only risks himself and we don't devalue Tornado mates because they only carry one crewmate!

Plus, these guys are captains of armed aircraft doing the good job of killing bad guys, in difficult, challenging tactical circumstances, every single day. The vast majority of us know the responsibility granted to pilots with the final say in releasing weapons, and these guys are no different. The fundamental skills and attitudes that make us RAF pilots can easily be present in RPAS pilots too.

Finally, having heard what I have of the DAEDALUS guys' capacity, airmanship, and tactical ability, I'm pretty sure that if situations had been different, they'd all have made fine manned pilots. It is disappointing to see relatively junior pilots clutching their 12 Tornado hours, bleating on about their wings being devalued, when the RPAS chaps have 1000+hrs of operational time on Predators. It's really quite pathetic.

Of course, if anyone who's actually flown a Reaper, or even watched one being flown, wants to comment on the relative experience and ability levels of manned vs RPAS pilots and why, as captains of RAF aircraft, they shouldn't be entitled to wear wings of some variety, then I'd be interested to hear their thoughts! But it seems that here and on the RAF FB pages there are a lot of people getting a bit upset about something they don't really have much knowledge of.

I think as a none pilot I'll back out of that one, I would say though it does not mean all pilots devaluing it are 12 hour Tornado pilots, a lot will have a lot more than that, and although a RPAS pilot may have 1000 hrs pus, it is still in total safety miles from the chance of being injured, where the Tornado pilot will have been in harms way and have earned them.

True; but out of the dozens and dozens of qualities that someone has to demonstrate in order to justifiably wear a set of wings, I think "exposure to risk" is very far down the list. Nothing to say these guys wouldn't willingly expose themselves to risk if it was required, and the fact that the MCE job at Creech or Waddington doesn't require it doesn't change things.

Captaincy, airmanship, responsibility, including the responsibility to take or save lives... they still have plenty to be proud of even if they're not in a warzone except when doing the LRE.

This reminds me of fellow pilots in the fast jet world complaining when the METS syllabus was cut down. Maybe pilots who've flown 40hrs EFT, 10hrs MELIN, and a handful of King Air hours should keep the bronze laurels, helicopter guys should get silver ones, and fast jet guys gold (platinum if you got them after AFT rather than BFJT?)? Then maybe people'd be happy to let RPAS guys keep blue.

Genuinely, I think that anyone who was exposed to them as operators would be impressed. I wonder if any of the complainees were on one of the recent FLAGs and bothered to take a spare few hours one day to visit Creech and see what they actually do?

I don't believe I'm still replying, but to me I wouldn't say they are pilots, plain and simple, true they are flying something remotely, but they are not onboard the aircraft and to be a qualified pilot you have to attain that standard, there is more to flying an aircraft with situation awareness and the feel of the aircraft in flight...... To give wings to a desk bound operator of a piece of equipment just rankles, do you give wings to every radio controlled model pilot, to an army operator of a simple airborne surveillance camera, such as are coming out for the likes of the IPhone ? Because that's were it is going, does that make CCTV operators pilots? Because it basically is the same, you are moving something in space from a remote station, what about remote gunners? To me a pilot is someone at the controls of a craft they are physically sitting in and have control over... Even killing people does not and should not come into the equation, because a pilot could serve his entire career without firing a weapon in anger, helicopters or transports etc come to mind.
That's how I see it, it is eroding the essence of what a pilot should be, even the RAF are facing the same quandary, otherwise the laurels would all be the same, at this rate we will end up with laurels all basically the same but multi coloured like Smarties... Odd thing I can see the logic, the German Army in WW2 had coloured bands around their badges to delineate their branch of service.

By definition they are indeed pilots but I agree with the sentiment of your post. Still, it is what it is and the system has decided this is the way ahead based on cost.
To that end I don't see why all ranks couldn't do the course as it would be even cheaper still? Maybe they are? Or is a junior non commissioned rank wearing 'pilot' wings a step too far.

Awaiting the Gunners
 

not a football post, but postulating that the Royal Artillery RPAS operators stand an interesting chance of initiating an exchange programme (because we all know that Joint = Army approved) and voila! NCO and enlisted "pilots" - without the Airships having to worry about "devaluing the officer corps". Ooh, what rough diamonds we have to educate....

due credit to Gnd at #24.

A couple of thoughts....

Are the University Air Squadron "Budgie" wings still awarded? If not, then perhaps a badge based upon this design would have been more appropriate? It is only a couple of letters changed from UAS to RPAS after all?

However, with the "Anti-Drone" stance being taken by a few misguided individuals (there is a small "peace" brigade campaigning against drones at Waddington) is it a good idea to positively identify those who fly them, making them a more conspicuous target in the local community? Perhaps the new wings design is an attempt at subtlety which, of course, has been wasted upon pilots!

I'm with the antis on this one. I have no problem with RPAS operators wearing a brevet of some sort, but these ones are just too close to the pilots flying badge. These guys are good operators, I've witnessed what they do on ops, they may have hundreds, even thousands of hours on type, but to call them pilots is to stretch a definition. These RPAS wings do, IMO, devalue the real flying badge and I too think that the design was a mistake.

Job Well Done Lads.
 

Good work chaps, congratulations on passing a challenging course, and understanding the weapon release responsibility necessary with (a particular) RPAS captaincy. :ok: I will leave the brevet point to those who want to expend their energy on it. :sad:

I have to agree, it's an opportunity missed and - quelle surprise! - has not been thought through by the powers that be.

When the single WSO/WSOp badge was introduced, it came very very close to having a "crownless" version for NCA - 'til it was pointed out that many pilots were not commissioned and had the same badge. :O

Moreover (good MoD word), it denies the RPAS "drivers" a chance to build their own history and traditions. And finally, Coff has illustrated the tone down and desert "monochrome" wings, but it could be argued that these are unofficial.

But what about Wings on No 5s? They too are monochrome - albeit gold - and are official ..........

Any comments senior people???

An MoD Spokesman said: "Oh b%gger, we didn't think of that". ........... no, that would mean being honest!

Congratulations to them for becoming qualified RPAS operators. They are certainly highly trained and skilled and have a seriously high-responsibility job. They are to be commended for their achievements in this field.

They are not RAF pilots though and should not wear the RAF pilots badge.

That badge is reserved for pilots who have been through the RAF flying training system. It is worn by those who strap themselves into military aircraft and then fly it.

This is a serious oversight by the seniors of the RAF.

5 Forward 6 Back - I think your missing the point, whether or not somebody has 12 hours in a tornado, or 4,000 hours in a harrier people have a right to feel aggrieved about the "devaluing" of the RAF flying brevet.

Nobody is doubting these individuals skill set, they are as trained for their role as any other specialisation I'd imagine. I think the issue here is that people feel that by awarding the brevet to somebody who "flies" predators, shows a worrying break from the tradition and a disregard for the training required to earn a set of RAF wings.

Be interesting to see if Army RPAS operators wear a brevet but I'll be surprised if its the Army Flying Badge.

Seeing as I had a PPL, 45 hrs on Bulldogs and 120 hrs on JPs before being sent to the back seat, can I have another flying badge given the fact that I flew a proper aeroplane?!!!!

5F6B

Absolutely agree with you. I have not worked with these individuals but know who they are and the environment in which they operate. It is challenging and the effect they bring is the same, or in the current theatre, greater than the traditional manned assets bring to the party. Is this not what being a pilot is actually about, delivery of effect? Exposure to risk is not a requirement for effect and indeed the exact opposite is desired, if only cost were no factor we could bring home a lot less casualties from all the services. I sincerely hope that most of the disgruntled noises is in fact just standard playground banter.

MQ1/MQ9 are not battlefield assets stooging around at treetop height, they are substantial aircraft probably operating in the range at which you would expect aircraft with their propulsion systems to operate i.e. mixing it up with all the other assets, possibly at the top of the stack as befits their attributes. There is no small amount of SA required to ensure that the aircraft gets up, does it's stuff, avoiding stuff below when delivering it's good news and then getting it back again. All skills that all the traditional pilots have and I've seen some of them pork it too, I might even have biffed things a couple of times myself, but will of course deny everything.

I certainly wouldn't be in the crewroom saying to their faces that they were pilots but I wouldn't say particularly good things about H*****r mates (but that's another story) within earshot, but the fact remains they were apparently quite good at what they did. Even this smarts a little and only being offered for public consumption behind the shield of anonymity.

Some on here don't like the look of the future, and who would that has sat in modern aircraft hooting and roaring around the sky? The simple plain fact is that RPAS technology is increasing in military use, is beginning to gain a substantial foothold in civilian applications and that is likely to expand, the ultimate conclusion of which is the removal of operators from the cockpit entirely at some stage in the future. (Probably led by Ryanair if they can reduce costs)

These guys are pilots, they deliver ordinance from airborne vehicles which are directly controlled by their actions. They may not have proved themselves through EFT/BFT/AFT but they have achieved everything they were asked through their training pipeline, and more operationally. I suspect that they will be a much needed and valuable addition to 39 and XIII Sqns. Christ knows that they shed their traditional pilots quickly enough. Are we really going to all twisted up over the shape and colour of the brevet. RPAs fly, they pilot them, its simply the start of a new brand of flying. Good luck to them. (They're still just wannabes - couldn't resist a dig.)

I wonder where the idea for a blue wreath came from?

http://1557-friars.sqn.ac/images/act...scholwings.jpg

:O

So are these guys already pilots?

And another thing, didn't Garfield already have wings? - Courtney Mil

Courtney ... look closely old chap he's wearing Brown Laurels - Coffman Starter

Surely not as in this thread http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-...own-wings.html .....:eek:

Jack

No Huey, not in the sense of the way you are asking, they are not qualified Aircraft pilots as in sit in it and fly it, they are remote pilots, as sit at a desk and fly it, the way it will all eventually go no doubt.