Aha, someone mentioned the disaster committing Lightnings to defend the Fleet at Sea. I was never able to determine which complete idiot of an Air Marshall, presumably at a Purple Cocktail Party, was suckered in by the Dark Blue to make such a totally stupid comittment.

The result, fuel capacity challenged aircraft operating miles out over the oggin, outside of TACAN range usually, totally reliant on AAR support and trying to find a bunch of boats that were nowhere near the position they originally intended. Then, to add to the fun and games, all intercepts were controlled by RN Controllers, usually against Buccs travelling rapidly and low down. Tricky enough by day, with the fuel gauges unwinding rapidly at 500 kts plus, but at night! Fast targets well below the Lightning authorised minimum intercept operating height at night (1500ft) - no Rad Alts in those days - trying to operate the Radar whilst holding a significant push force on the control column at high speed, trim already fully nose down. More than just a few people arrived home with fumes only and a few early grey hairs.

The flying was demanding and one learnt very quickly to protect recovery options during that time. But frustration with Senior Management that denied any problems and castigated anyone who tried to say otherwise was never far away.

The one highlight for me, invited to make an approach to Ark Royal, the angled deck version. Sensibly resisted the urge to fly a bolter, and then was much amused to observe a Victor Tanker also having a go.

lm

Oh, more Coltishall ATC. There was the day (AOC review) when 28 aircraft were launched in marginal weather (many longer stories in that), where the first aircraft to return (OC Ops), landed downwind, lost the chute and took the barrier. The subsequent three aircraft were “cleared to land, barrier up and engaged.”
A few more aircraft made it back to Colt, but the remainder were scattered around E Anglia, all short of fuel.

The following year (BoB) we flew 16 – with a new OC Ops.

http://i47.tinypic.com/314qc5c.jpg

I remember that day, just, was the famed OC Ops known affectionately as 'Apple'?

Several divertees arrived at Wattisham and proceeded to recount to us the whole, almost unbelievable, saga. If I recall correctly, Apple, sitting in the Barrier with career fading by the second, was desperately trying to take over ATC by instructing people to land over the top of his aircraft stuck in the Barrier. At least that direction was into wind, but nobody obliged.

And then there was Arthur, a hangar and no brakes :\.

lm

Overwing tanks had not been fitted for some years by the early 1980s, their limitations (subsonic only, 20 kt crosswind limit on dry rather than 25kt, etc.) being deemed to be more of a nuisance than their fuel was worth. So they were stored at North Coates in a shed and covered in bird poo when we suddenly become interested in them again in 1981.

This interest was sparked by a little technical trouble on a Taceval part 1, after which we forensically inspected our tasking paperwork and re-discovered the requirement to be able to role into overburgers. This had died from neglect, two-year posting cycles being a wonderful killer of corporate memory...

The least poo-ed on pair of OWTs were retrieved and made serviceable, then another etc. until we had four pairs through the tank bay. All the seals had perished but the Suppliers had a stock. However, making the OWTs behave correctly on an aircraft took several days. Eventually we succeeded (and pilots queued up to fly with with them but, I noticed, only once...) and we carefully noted which tanks successfully matched with which station on which airframe. Come Taceval part 2 we were given the task to role one aircraft in OWTs, so we selected the airframe and the tanks apparently 'at random' but in reality via some fast footwork the airframe/tank match we wanted. So from a supposedly cold start, producing a serviceable OWT-fitted aircraft took us only about 3 hours. The aircraft was then scrambled IIRC on an endurance CAP with no tanker support to prove to the evaluators that the tanks worked. Big tick in box.

Come Op Corporate we roled and flew 2 F6s in OWTs (and were prepping two more), prompting the editor of the Grimsby Evening Telegraph, who had the habit of looking out of his window, to call up to ask when we were "going to the South Atlantic". We weren't, we were just trying to get ahead of the game if anything popped up, but he didn't believe us.

The big jettison cartridges for the tanks themselves ceased to exist in the 1970s, IIRC, when they became time-expired and weren't replaced because of the damage they were known to cause. Pilot's Notes (mine are to AL15 in 1980) never caught up. The only cartridges fitted were for fuel jettison from the tanks themselves, in their rear boat-tail fairings.

And ORAC, I am afraid no T5 could be fitted with OWTs because they had F3 wings; the T55s with F6 wings undoubtedly could, but we had none of those. LTF's target, IIRC was an F6 with an additional forward fuel pack in place of the guns. I don't recall fitting OWTs to it in my time but I bet such a vehicle with a Fresnel lens was a very useful radar target.

100% lightningmate.
I arrived at Wattisham IMC with a ‘radio failure’ glued firmly to a formation member’s jet pipe. This resulted in a line astern GCA, transitioning to a pairs landing as the wheels came down.

“… then there was Arthur, a hangar and no brakes”.
A hilarious episode, except I was just leaving the hanger door next to the window which Arthur hit !
The ‘bang’ was totally disorienting, as was the brick dust fog.
A Firestreak appeared through the haze; in the flower bed – the shear bolt had gone.
Then a silhouette of the Lightning nose, stuck into an office window like an animal eating fodder. And it ate, with a roar and loud pops and ‘farts’ as the office contents (and bricks) were sucked into the intake and dispatched, duly mangled by two RR Avons, in further clouds of dust.
As senses returned, a hasty retreat was made along the front of the hanger, to be joined formation like, by Arthur hotfooting it from the cockpit, but one story up on the roof of the hanger office.

Interested parties arrived to view the spectacle; one brave engineer with a ladder near the cockpit attempted to shut the engines down by closing the HP cocks, but without success due to jammed throttle linkages. As time progressed, the roaring noise and digestion increased, the crowed slowly retreated, allowing the crash team to view the scene.

Small huddles formed to consider how to stop the engines; elects (fuse pullers), mechs (spanners), airframe (hammer), crash team (flood it). After a considerable period, panels were opened around the engines and the throttle linkage disconnected which finally stopped the engines.
With no more flying allowed, the day ended in the bar.

Dull? Let's talk about AVPIN and moving it overseas by various means - such as Channel ferries......

On balance, Safetypee, I'd say that that was "frigh(t)ening" enough for most of us, albeit perhaps not quite what the OP had in mind.:O

Jack

Yes - they did appear optimistic in showing what could be carried:

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...53-cutaway.jpg

When you look at that cutaway, you can see why it was so short-legged. So, a question to those who flew it: would a fuselage plug have solved the problem or would that have ruined the handling?

Or... what would have solved the range problem?

As mentioned way back - you have to remember what the aircraft was built for - rapid reaction, rapid time to height, fire off 2 missiles at the baddies and dash home to do it all again asap. As time went on, its role changed to reach tanked regular 6-7 hour sorties intercepting the 'baddies' in my time.

I've got a dim recollection from late 67/early 68 of being in the control room at Patrington and seeing a backlit chinagraph board which had a large graph on it. It had time on the x axis and fuel on the y axis and a legend which referred, I think, to the Mk1 Lightning. When I commented on it to a controller he told me the Lightning was the only aircraft, at that time, which had its fuel monitored from the ground. Can anyone confirm that my memory is correct?

The Lightning was 'developed' from the P1 series of research aircraft. Design considerations for research aircraft do not include long term operational use, nor the need for much fuel!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/yeees.gif

The P1 happened to be around when somebody decided we needed a supersonic interceptor and this was seen as a ready means of generating something to meet the requirement. Unfortunately, the system failed to grasp the need to re-design fully the aircraft engineering aspects to meet the needs of an operational platform. The Lightning was a nightmare for Sqn Engineers. Rectifying anything in the fuselage invariably required at least the Jet-Pipes to come out and often one or both engines. Fuel leaks plagued the aircraft throughout its service life and several were lost due to fuel fires in flight. I can recall a time when 56 Sqn in Cyprus had all its airframes grounded with Cat 3 Fuel Leaks. We loaned one of ours to 56's aeros pilot to keep him current, after landing that was also Cat 3 Fuel Leaks - our Boss was not amused!

It was generally accepted a Lightning required 50 hours of engineering support to generate a single flying hour.

lm

BOAC, I was told a story in the dim, distant past that the original concept for Lightning operation proposed by English Electric was along the lines of "operational use and currency flying only" with Hunters being used for day-to-day work. Hence the original design life of only 1,000 flying hours (this of course was subsequently extended many times over the aircraft's career). Thankfully the RAF did not sign up to this method of operation!

lightningmate, you are right about the engineering effort required to keep the beasts flying. After every jet pipe/inter pipe/engine removal full reheat runs were required. Despite the high workload the Lightning generated great affection amongst the groundcrews (and obviously amongst the pilots). After all, it was British and there wasn't a navigator in sight! And before anyone asks the question, the best variant by far was the FMk2A.:ok:

LM, I was probably in Cyprus around that time. Probably 1972 but every month 56 dropped on in Limassol Bay. Then one month they were in UK for an MPC and the visiting sqn on APC dropped one instead.

A friend of mine, later AVM, wrote his sqn article for the stn mag and commented that is was nice to see the visitors keeping the stats up. Someone had a quiet word in his shell-like and said they were lucky so far as no one had lost their life as well.

I remember one event, I think the pilot was Martin C***s. He was in the bar, wrapped in a blanket, large puddle of water gathering at his feet and talking 18 to the dozen. (Slower talking as he was also sinking pint upon pint of beer. Outside was the blood waggon waiting to whisk him off to PMH to see if he was OK.

BOAC, I do appreciate that. Just interested in an answer to the question, though: what would have solved the range issue?

There are/were lots of proposed Ligntning development and it's fair to say that the vast majority were victims of politics. The VG version is pictured here but there were many others.

My question's a little off the original thread track, I know, but just curious.

CC - I think it would have been such a major redesign as to render it uneconomic. As someone else said, a new fuselage with redesigned area-rule giving a fuselage tank would have been useful.

cc

The range problem was solved by funding a fleet of Air Tankers - not exactly a cheap option and its benefit was fairly limited in a War situation. Operational issues were never resolved

Firstly, the Lightning had a very limited time-on-task without Tanker Support. However, once you were engaged and burning fuel, popping back to a Tanker was not a readily available option and probably not required; see below.

Secondly, the aircraft carried an inadequate number of weapons, 2 x AAM are quickly fired out. Of course, some variants had Guns but not really the weapon of choice for the Lightning's war role in the UK ADR. Having scrambled into the North Sea Lanes and engaged, after 30 mins or so, you would probably end up fired out some 100 plus miles from base, short of fuel and essentially useless as an AD asset unless you wished to opt for the ramming tactic. Meanwhile, quite a lot of baddies are still streaming towards the UK whilst most of the UK AD assets need to scuttle back home to replenish weapons and fuel, which takes a lot of time.

Could these Lightning operational deficiencies have been resolved?

Lots more internal fuel - not really, no viable space, fuselage plugs would not have helped and could have caused aerodynamic/stability issues. External tanks - we had some but performance limiting and draggy. Rather than upgrade the entire Mk 3 force to Mk 6 standard; thus a bit more fuel. Someone opted to purchase the visual fits for the Lightning Simulators and we all know how useful that option was!

More AAMs - Firestreak and Redtop were big items with wings fitted, no alternate mounting points are obvious, always remembering you need to safely launch the beasts not just carry them around. Re-fit with Sidewinders would have required an extensive mod programme but probably would have increased the number of AAMs carried. There were attempts to 'up-gun' the Lightning, the Taildog programme got us a bit excited for a while.

In summary, we had what we had, which was far from ideal. However, UK military aircraft programmes are employment providers, if you look back over many years there are not many UK military platforms that could be classed as fully operationally effective. Hell, the Meteor, until a ventral tank was fitted, had even less operational endurance than the Lightning.

lm

Thanks, gents.

There was great performance but not much fuel in the early Lightnings .... post#137
 

Here are some Pilot's Notes extracts from 50 years ago.

All Lightnings had fuel in their flaps from day 1.

Fuel quantity & performance are always opposing variables.

We were lucky enough to have enjoyed flying the several hotrod Marks of Lightning over many years.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3.../PNLtg4029.jpg

As an ADO at Patrington [in the Divesion Cell] then, I have NO recollection of said graph. The only backlit chinagraph boards were,
1 the "Tote Board" in the Ops room and
2 the Wx display board in the Diversion Cell.
We DID have a Log Book, which recorded every T/O and Landing from ALL Lightning Units..... Like the day 85 Sqn [Canberras] and 5 Sqn [Lightning] launched from Binbrook, which promptly went Red. Flash phone call to Leeming sorted the Lightnings. The Canberras took care of themselves.

Lightning mate mentions ramming - that was prescribed when I did the OCU in 1964. The OC Ops welcomed us to Royal Air Force Fighter Command (a bit rich since most of us had arrived from Chivenor) and told us that with our Lightning we would be able to despatch 4 enemy aircraft - one with each of the two missiles, one with the guns and the fourth one we would ram. I tittered 'cause I thought he had made a funny - first of many career-limiting incidents.

'If you came here to laugh young man, you can leave now' said OC Ops. No sense of humour I decided and was proved right several times through the course.

Chiglet
Maybe the thing I saw was for an exercise? (possible)
Or perhaps it's a figment of my rapidly failing memory (more likely)

What was also frightening sadly was the rate of Lightning losses. For the three years 1970 to 1971 there were 23 lost - 11 attributed to fires.

This compares with 12 Harrier losses, and 11 each for the Buccaneer, Hunter and Jet Provost during the same period.

It was about '70 my bro-in-law, Stu Tulloch left this one on fire.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ingF3XP742.jpg

Unless my maths are letting me down that's 68 airframes lost in 3 years. Almost 2 per month, that's frightening beyond belief.....

I'm worried about my math's too. How does 3 years fit into 1970 to 1971?
S-D

Doohhh!!!!! :ugh: Who feels silly now?:O

Missile Cooling...
 

The Firestreak used ammonia for cooling, the Redtop used 12,000 psi pure air. Cooling was only for the IR seeker heads, the electronics used (IIRC) Arklone or Trike. The reason for all those 40-gallon drums of water on the flight line was in case a liney copped for a face-full of liquid ammonia - your mates were supposed to dump you head first into a water barrel. Obviously, in some cases all you had to do was give a liney a funny look and you'd end up in a barrel...

I can't think of a reason why Sidewinders couldn't have been fitted - all that gubbins in the missile pack could have been replaced with ballast, the Sidewinder doesn't need much support from the airframe, unlike Firestreak/Redtop. Given the respective weights of Redtop vs Sidewinder you could have got 2 Sidewinder on each pylon. I was on 5 Sqn at the time of the Falklands war and there was talk of underwing hardpoints for Sidewinder carriage, though nothing came of that. Might have got away with overwing Sidewinders a la Jaguar, though.

Liquid ammonia, liquid oxygen, AVPIN, intake checks, it's a wonder any of us groundcrew survived!

From what one hears, doesn't something similar often happen in the navy....:ooh:

Makes a fatalistic sort of sense.........would there have been any intact bases to return to and do a turn-around? :uhoh:

I wondered that same thing doing the ex-launch nuke-cleaning drills at Bruggen. Waste of time.

Ahh dressed in a see through plastic suit over the top of a NBC suit in summer sweating your nuts off trying to wash a Jag down with a bucket of soapy water and a brush... Thinking if it ever comes to this we are f**ked.
That and the Blue Peter designed decontam centre as you entered the site Hards, built from black plastic sheeting, bodge tape, broom handles and some surreal faith that it would be alright on the night..

Did you ever see the film of the trials of the first HAS's where they stuck some old aircraft and some sheep inside, nailed the door shut and detonated a simulated near miss from I think a 1000 pounder, opening the doors the narrator was wittering on about how the aircraft was damaged it could be brought back into service in days........ We were looking at all the dead sheep, as we would be living in the said HAS's.... Often wondered what pillock thought that would boost our confidence in the concrete coffins. :ugh:

.

In '67 or '68, on the Malta Adex the Lightnings demonstrated the QTR is less than 10 minutes including a missile pack drop. On one sortie a colonial was spoofed by the inbound bomber and sent to Recovery. Recovery didn't realise he had been spoofed on to the freq so vectored him back to Luqa. He did a supersonic RTB, QTR, scramble, and engaged the same bomber pre-bomb release.

Nope, I've read it several times and still don't understand WTF you're on about, PN......:hmm:

A frightening aircraft, no; exhilarating and exciting, definitely.

I think it helped that we had mostly trained on that great Lightning trainer the Gnat, although one chap on my OCU course was heard to complain that the only previous swept-wing aircraft he had flown was the Tiger Moth. First problem was trying to get your wheels up after take-off without exceeding the limiting speed of 250kt, the acceleration was amazing. I never thought that it had any bad flying habits; it normally gave plenty of warning of a spin for example, and would recover, eventually. Incidentally, years after my only Lightning tour I was converting to the Tornado. The 67° swept wing approach was considered to be quite a handful; I thought it was just like a Lightning approach.

NutLoose,

I was glad I was well out of the way at the bottom of a ruddy deep trench and under 3 or 4 feet of well thumped down overhead protection. Al R at front, after the fleet at Wildenrath had called it a day (1985?).

http://www.echelonwealthcare.co.uk/s...wildenrath.jpg

On a lighter note......
At a "Summer Camp" at Binbrook, I was chatting to a Chiefy. He said that "If you take the wing top fairimgs off, and bolt on a coupje of rails, then using the Nav Light circutry, you cold pop on a couple of Sidewinders"
As a member of IPMS, at that years Nationals, I exhibited a Lightning Mk6B, Two RedTops and Two Sidewinders in Dark Gre[a]y Camo. It was only when the Aviation "Experts" were told about the 'Winders, they sussed it. They ALL thought it was the colour scheme....

Nearly...
Got a trip in a T-bird on a UAS attachment one week after soloing the Bulldog. Allowed to fly most of the sortie - different planet! I want one!!
Even took the radar books home to memorise.

Some years later, top the TWU course and... bastards cancelled the last LTF course.:{:{:{

Bloody holds in flying training:mad:

Got the shiny new AD jet, but wanted the old one.

I doubt I was alone....most fun I've had clothes on or off


..

- a real Lightning pilot does:hmm:

And so will the QTR crews, for whom every cough 35 years later has strange AVPIN overtones...:\