Not to mention Fallujah (when the yanks went ape), numerous forays into Gaza (IDF), and Janin (while the world was distracted by the WTC same day) - oh, and just who is doing these acts becomes even more disgusting when the possibility of proxy groups is considered (eg MEK trained by Mossad in Iran). It's a dirty business - we should not rush headlong in the direction we are being pointed without getting the whole picture - oh that we had a good intelligence service that was acting purely in the interests of the British people. My fellow yanks did go ape in Fallujah, but it would seem they avoided mass rapes, torture and slaughter of women and children as well as the combatants themselves, at least somewhat unavoidable slaughter. I'm sure the operation and it's participants weren't perfect, but in our US society today, we would have heard about it if we behaved like a modern day Eizengruppen. As for Janin, it is spelled Jenin, and while I have no apologies or real knowledge of the situation, the flattening of that town occurred 1 year after September 11, not the same day. We are in agreement that a countries citizens should have a clear understanding of the issues involved, Kuwaiti babies getting tossed out of incubators by Iragi soldiers does ring a bell, getting the real story is the tough part. |
Whatsa..
I was not referring to the "Battle" of Jenin that went on early April 2002 - I was referring to the major incursion that occurred simultaneously with 911. If the timing was intended so as to use WTC event as a distraction then it certainly worked in your case. Like a lot of people, I was listening to the radio that night (Western Australia time) for more developments on the WTC attack: the BBC then reported the Jenin operation; the commentators sounded perplexed - one said something like "Could this have been a knee-jerk reaction to the WTC attack?" - the other replied something like "No, the tanks and bulldozers had been mustering for 3 days and then waited for about 10 hours, beginning the operation when news of the WTC attacks came through". Do you really want to trade notes on Fallujah? |
Good point - what's going on in Bahrain is real bad - but the main media doesn't make so much of it like it does for Syria. Fallujah: Widely written that the behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen. Kuwait: After all the dust had settled it was admitted by the Kuwaiti government that the babies in incubators stories were not true but had been deliberately put about to increase sympathy to the Kuwait people. What doesn't get talked about so much is the number of foreign maids that were left in Kuwait by their employers, without any documentation and who the Iraqis then took to Iraq, some managed to get home after the resumption of hostilities in 2003, many are still listed as 'missing'. |
Parabellum
<< ... behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen.>> A man of your calibre should surely acknowledge the circumstances that led up to this local conflict. First though, you were referring to the contractors who were shot to death in their vehicles? Granted their bodies were treated disrespectfully but then there was a great deal of hatred for such contractors (remember video clips of some tossing grenades casually and shooting indiscriminately at innocent civs from their vehicles?). Now, after the toppling of Saddam, Fallujah was not immediately hostile to Americans and, thanks to good community government, was stable and functional much as we are hoping that the whole of Iraq may be like some day - however, the Americans stomped in and caused much upset - the resultant street protests were dealt with so brutally as to make the Syrian government look like it is using kid gloves. |
Not sure where they're being deployed from.
I do remember back in the 1970s the they had a permanent presence moored at the "Cyprus Buoy" south of Larnaca that the aircraft going back from firing on the banner used to beat up. Supposedly it had enough armoured vehicles and marines to reach and evacuate the embassy in Nicosia in the event of any problems. I would imagine the size of the Russian embassy in Damascus would need two ships worth to evacuate all the personnel, documents and equipment they couldn't destroy. Torygraph: Home»News»World News»Middle East»SyriaRussia 'sending warships to Syria' Russia is preparing to send two amphibious assault ships to the Syrian port of Tartus according to the Interfax news agency. The move is seen as an attempt to ensure the safety of Russian nationals stationed at the strategic naval base Moscow operates on Syria's Mediterranean coast. An unidentified officer confirmed that "Two major amphibious ships – The Nikolai Filchenkov and The Tsezar Kunikov – are preparing to be dispatched to Tartus outside of their schedule." It is believed the two ships will be carrying a large group of marines and could be used to evacuate Russian citizens and property. There has been no official confirmation of the report from the navy or the defence ministry. The deployment of the two ships is a sure sign of the deterioration of the situation in Syria as the country descends into all-out civil war.............. |
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Poor defence knowledge at the Telegraph again. It's probably a sub-editor's fault but the aircraft in the photo isn't at all similar to a MiG-21!
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This is why nobody will do anything most of the time.
The Guardian Blue print for Freedom of the People 1. Guardian reports oppression of people in country X 2. Guardian readers demand action now. 3. UN says no mandate, no consensus 4. Guardian readers incensed at loss of human life - demand action 5. Governments, tired of the wet lefties marching on the streets, put sanctions on country X 6. Guardian complains about sanctions not working. 7. Countries put even tougher sanctions on and consider invasion 8. Guardian readers object to warmongering by other countries and march on the streets demanding peace 9. Country X wonders who the Guardian readers are and why they aren't here with guns actually doing something useful. . . . 199. Country is invaded under a UN resolution 200. First Guardian "Stop the War campaign" 201. First person hurt/injured/killed 202. Guardian demand return of military and a cease fire 203. Locals in Country X wonder whose side the Guardian readers are on 204. War continues, incumbent regime collapses, victory assured 205. Locals start reprisals against regime leadership - embarrassed silence from Guardian readers 206. Locals demand money to rebuild country . . . 250. Money provided and locals spend it on weapons and building a tribal structure with warlords all over 251. First peacekeeper killed by locals while trying to stop corruption 252. Guardian readers demand to see the evidence that an invasion was justified 253. Guardian readership demand war reparations 254. Local demand repayments for the damage done to the country in feeing it of (the original) tyranny. . . . 300 Developed countries think, scr*w the lot of them and pull out, leaving them a total lawless mess, Ad nauseum. . . . 301. Some one figures out that if we ignore step 199 to 300, the outcome is just the same and a darn sight cheaper and who cares what the hypocritical Guardian readers think - the locals in Country X don't so why should the UK ? |
GrahamO :D:D:D
Nice to see some sarcasm with real effort put into it. One wonders what they are Guardians of? There own egos as far as I can tell. |
Fodplod, they were only 8 out... :p
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Well said GrahamO!:ok:
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At the risk of being provocative ....
Why should we intervene in Syria?
Why should we not look to the Arab world - who are quite happy to criticize the Western world for "imperialist crusader tendancies" when we try to do the right thing - to sort their own house out for once? Just a thought. And before people start arguing that it is the moral thing to do, I would ask just whose morals would Western intervention satisfy? I forget which school of philosophy subscribes to the theory that individuals only ever do something because it is in their interests, including making the individual in question feel good. But looking at the way Iraq is going as an example, just what would Western intervention in Syria actually achieve other than salving the Western conscience? And no, intervention wouldn't stop the general repression that seems to exist in one way shape or form regardless of flag flown, party name or presidential title in that region. Like the Russian revolution in 1918, all it would likely achieve is to replace one repressive regime with another. |
Any person who has spent any time in the Middle East will have come to the conclusion that the concepts of democracy and respecting the majority etc. are completely alien to the region.As far as the Syrian situation is concerned if Assad is removed he will simply be replaced by another vicious dictator. I spent many years working in the region and was told very early on that the Arab philosophy was that he had his foot on your neck or you had your foot on his.
Not a single British soldier should be put in harms way under any pretext of humanitarian principles - as in past and present efforts the people we try to help will turn on us in an instant. |
Poor defence knowledge at the Telegraph again. It's probably a sub-editor's fault but the aircraft in the photo isn't at all similar to a MiG-21!
The Russians are no better :* Pilot who defected Syria on MiG-21 fighter jet granted asylum in Jordan — RT milo |
Looks like the game is on now, as news reports are that a Turkish F-4, over international waters, was shot down by Syrian air defense.
There seems to be some question over "35NM limit" and internationally agreed "12 nm limit" which reminds me of a certain mad colonel in Libya in the 80's. Asserting a longer territorial limit didn't turn out all that well for him, did it? Assad ought to consider that bit of history when the US Sixth Fleet, aka NATO's StrikeForceSouth (or whatever they call it nowadays) happen to still be an on call force. Mind you, I don't think the Turks needs NATO help for this one, I suspect they are up to a punitive smack down on their own merits. Get some popcorn, this film might be very interesting. |
Hi,
Just a sidenote : a picture of a MiG-21, often presented as "the" defector syrian MiG, is shown by many media those days. Said picture is of an egyptian MiG, in Louxor, february 2010: View topic - Egyptian MiGs - Luxor 24/02/2010 |
Russian helicopter shipment heading back to Syria: Ifax
A ship carrying Russian helicopters to Syria, which turned back after its insurance was cut, is expected to resume its journey accompanied by at least one other vessel, Interfax reported today, citing a military source. The report is likely to reignite international criticism of Russia's arms deliveries to Syria which U.S. officials have called reprehensible and the Arab League has said should be stopped. "A military-diplomatic source in Moscow told Interfax that (the ship) will go from Murmansk to Syria. According to his information the ship should travel under escort," the news agency reported. The ship Alaed, which entered the Russian port of Murmansk on Sunday to change its flag to the Russian Standard, will not be accompanied by military vessels, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The report did not say how the ship had resolved its insurance problems or what difference the flag change would make......... |
Would that be the Russian helicopter shipment that is actually a number of aircraft that had been sent back to Russia for repair a long time before all this nonsense started and is therefore simply part of a completely legal and above board contract?
Now I don't know the exact numbers of aircraft on board, but I strongly suspect it is a small number of the overall total in the Syrian ORBAT, and there will be plenty sitting in hangars somewhere. From the Regime's perspective, all the temporary delay of the return of these aircraft is likely to achieve is a bit more effort to wheel some more out of the sheds and prepare them. And then you still have the fixed wing fleet to contend with. The harsh truth of the matter is that after the politicians have once again singularly failed in the UN (their success in Libya largely contributing to current Russian stuborness) - on top of their repeated failures to sort the constant stream of international economic crises - once again shows their rather ineffectual colours in their true light. This ship turns round, goes back to home port and if I were a betting man, arranges cover via some Russian government scheme and heads back, this time almost untouchable courtesy of Moscow. It's just another attempt by the politicians to salve their own consciences, to show the world that they are doing something. But in reality it's activity rather than achievement. |
Aha, reflagged as Russian, and then off to do business. Hadn't realized that it may not have been operating under Russian flag.
Sounds a bit like reflagging Kuwaiti tankers in the Persian Gulf a few decades ago, yes? :E Good fun! |
Funny how we spend so much time debating Syria where the media direct us to look while ignoring South Africa where so many people of similar stock and culture as ourselves have been brutally murdered in recent years.
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Wonder will France demand a no arms supply deal just like Libya until they caught dropping weapons.............
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Walter K -" ignoring South Africa where so many people of similar stock and culture as ourselves have been brutally murdered in recent years.
are you a Zulu or a Matabele then???? I think you;ll find most of the murdering in the RSA over the last 50 years was done by white folk |
I think you;ll find most of the murdering in the RSA over the last 50 years was done by white folk BARBAROUS KILLING OF WHITE PEOPLE IN SOUTH AFRICA |
I wouldn't put too much stock in the accusations of the remnant of the white superiority movement responsible for the horror that was Apartheid.
Note that they fall back on statements made by Mandela decades ago when the whites were killing the blacks in the hundreds of thousands without prosecution to try to support their current claims. This is hardly an honest look at what Mandela has stood for AND DONE since the collapse of the white-controlled racially divided government that held the blacks in virtual servitude. I am sure that there ARE some incidents, and that some government officials have neglected their duties in that regard... but I'll need far more than the rants of people who want a return to the pre-1990 South Africa in order to believe that black-on-white violence in SA is anywhere near that bad... or is being ignored by the government on a systematic basis. |
The topic is Syria, the attention to be paid to issues in South Africa may warrant a separate thread for focus on that topic. Agreed? Each area has its own peculiarities and potential impact on neighbors, or those further afield.
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I thought that this thread was pushing for action on Syria - I posted that note on RSA as an example of disastrous regime change (as if Afghanistan and Iraq were not enough) - RSA was a powerful, vigorous, and functional state which, with gradual change, held the best future for all South Africans.
Perhaps this link may serve to get the real picture over of the hell that is developing there: The Truth About South Africa: How many blacks were killed during Apartheid? |
Asia Times: Russia drags Turkish farmers into Syria front line
MOSCOW - A century ago the Ottomans understood not to press the Russians in close encounters; the Turks are slow learners. After several recent episodes in which the Turkish armed forces have attempted to interfere with Russian vessels delivering cargo to Syria, the Russians have now delivered the message that Turkish cargoes headed for Russia may be stopped altogether. The subtlety of this message has yet to be detected by the Anglo-American war media. They are still blustering over the message the Syrians delivered when they used Russian-made cannons to shoot down an American-made Turkish spy plane over Syrian territory on June 22. Six days later, on June 28, the Russian government's food safety and quarantine service Rosselkhoznadzor (RSN) issued an announcement disclosing that it had detected 33 cases of infestation in Turkish exports to Russia of fruits and vegetables. The detection had reportedly taken place over the previous six months, possibly longer. The pests were identified in the official announcement as "the American white moth and the western (California) flower thrip". RSN said it had "appealed to the General Directorate of Protection and Control of the Turkish Ministry of Food Agriculture and Livestock to take urgent measures to ensure full compliance with Russian and international phytosanitary requirements for the regulated supply of Turkish goods to Russia." Then followed the warning of a trade embargo. "As you know, in 2005 Rosselkhoznadzor was forced to introduce restrictive measures on imports of Turkish plant products due to the discovery of systemic [infestation] in the quarantine facilities in Russia." The RSN announcement might have identified the pests by their common English or Latin names - the fall webworm or Hyphantria cunea, as the moth is known, and the western flower thrip, Frankliniella occidentalis. But RSN probably wasn't intending a reminder of the entomological history according to which the insects were native to the US and migrated from there to Europe. Explicitly naming the insects as American, however, appears to have been intended to convey the larger point - by relying on American infestation of the political and military sort, going to war against Syria, and imposing an armed cordon around its supply lines, Turkey is putting at risk its trade with Russia. The Turkish generals may enjoy their warmaking; Turkish farmers may not......... |
theres a fuller version of that at RUSSIA TO SHOOT DOWN TURKEY
It goes on to say "Turkish customs data show that this is a particularly sensitive time of the year for the Turks to appreciate a Russian threat to shoot down Turkish strawberries, pomegranates, cherries, tomatoes and peppers. That’s because the value of Turkish exports to Russia, all products, in the five months to May 31 has been running at a record level – $2.6 billion so far, with more than $6.2 billion possible by year’s end. If achieved, that would be higher than the $6 billion value reached last year, and in 2008. In between, the value of Turkish exports sank as low as $2.5 billion in the recession year of 2009. Russia ranks the third largest of Turkey’s export markets, behind Germany and the UK; it is roughly equal with Italy. An estimated 20% of the value of Turkish exporsto Russia is generated by fruits and vegetables; for Turkish strawberries and tomatoes, Russia is the leading buyer." |
War is economic...................always has been, always will be, easy to dress up as something else but its always economic.
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Was the Falklands economic? Northern Ireland? The Napoleonic Wars? The Iran Iraq war?
The world is not as black and white as you think. |
Was the Falklands economic? Northern Ireland? The Napoleonic Wars? The Iran Iraq war? The world is not as black and white as you think. 1.) Fishing rights and potentially Oil 2.) Most definitely as was response by Artificial NI statelet to minority population seeking equality i.e. reduction in economic sectarian power of majority that was starting fuel 3.) Napoleonic - most definitely was |
Russian warships are sent to Syria Northern Fleet (NF) destroyer Admiral Chabanenko and three Russian amphibious assault ships left NF Main Base Severomorsk on July 10. The high official from Russian Ministry of Defence told Central Navy Portal. Three amphibious assault ships transport Marine Corps submits on-board. Baltic Fleet guard frigat Yaroslav Mudry and auxiliary ships, based in Baltiysk, will join Admiral Chabanenko later. According to information available to Central Navy Portal, naval ships move into the Mediterranean Sea, into Syria water area. À crew member from one of the ships confirmed the information. He also noticed, that the three-months mission in the Mediterranean Sea for Admiral Chabanenko and three Russain amphibious assault ships was planned in advance. Recall that in 2012 Russian warships called at Tartus port many times. To replenish supplies, destroyer Admiral Chabanenko, frigate Ladny, and tanker Lena, being deployed with the Russian Navy's carrier group in the Mediterranean, visited the port in Jan 2012. Aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov and rescue tug Nikolai Chiker were anchored off the Tartus port then. |
Good news.
You will note that back in about 2007, more US ships were sent to the Persian Gulf, and some alarmists (Paul Craig Roberts for one) decided that this meant war, not saber rattling. So, what's Russian for saber rattling? :E Play on. |
The following Russian Navy vessels passed through the Bosphorus.
11th July Destroyer Smetlivy = Call sign RFH70 10th July Caesar Kunikov (Amphibious Landing Ship) = Call sign RGZ58 Nikolay Filchenkov (Amphibious Landing Ship) Shakhtar Tug = Call sign RMUW or RCJE SB-5 Okhtenskiy Class Tug = Call sign RMUW or RCJE Citing Greek military sources, Greek media reported on Tuesday, that four Russian warships are sailing through the Aegean Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean. Two amphibious ships from the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the CAESAR KUNIKOV and the NIKOLAI FILCHENKOV, and two tug-boats SHAKHTAR and OKHTENSKY passed through the Turkish Straits this morning and were currently south of the Imvros Island. According to Greek defencenet.gr portal, the Russian ships will be sailing the Aegean Sea and are expected to exit Greek waters in the dawn of Wednesday via the Karpathos-Rhodes strait. The only vessel sending regular Morse weather traffic is RCJE (Probably an Auxiliary and likely to be one of the Tugs). The others vessels are active in Morse but only sending encrypted HF links. 8345 Kilohertz, 11 July, 18 GMT RCV DE RCJE 11181 99368 10266 22242 @ 1819Z 36.8N 26.6E Heading South at 6-10 Knots Map Link Just a quick snippet. I won't post further Morse Code weather movements as the Black Sea vessels will probably transit to Tartus, Syria. |
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Looks like Northern and Baltic Fleet elements of the Task Force are underway.
Very weak Morse weather transmission noted on 8345 Khz. The call sign was too weak to copy. 13th July, 12 GMT Northern Fleet element 8345 Khz 13121 99674 10078 @1220Z 67.4N 07.8E Map Link Baltic Fleet 8345 RMP DE RBES 13121 99546 10112 22270 @1224Z 54.6N 11.2E Heading North West Speed 0 Knots or not reported Map Link The Black Sea element is still heading towards Syria. 12464 RCV DE RCJE 13121 99340 10302 22222 @1203Z 34.0N 30.2E Heading East at 6-10 Knots Map Link Nikolay Chiker is listed as participating and movements will likely appear at the following link. NIKOLAY CHIKER - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 8613334 - 273543910 Full details of the vessels released by the Russian Media at following link. 'Russian Navy Command explained warships sending to the Mediterranean Sea' Russian Navy Command explained warships sending to the Mediterranean Sea Just a quick post to keep those interested updated. I won't clog up the thread with further routine position reports. If they pass through the Strait of Gibraltar I'll post an update. |
M/V Alaed
Position Recorded on: 2012-07-12T10:17:00 (UTC) Lat/Lon: 69.65979 / 14.40417 Speed/Course: 13.3 kn / 228° From Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions |
Syria crisis: Defence & INterior Ministers killed in Damascus attack
........Damascus security building was targeted during a meeting for ministers and security leaders: state TV #Syria #Breaking..... ...........Hezbollah TV is now saying Assad's brother-in-law, Assef Shawkat [Interior Minister], is dead..... ..........Syria: State media has confirmed that the defence minister was killed in the blast......... |
The Torygraph has an article that refers to casualties with symptoms similar to those with Nerve Gas employed against them, according to a Syrian doctor.....
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The Syrian Hind helos have apparently been unloaded from the M/V Alaed at Kaliningrad?
Syria-Bound Helicopters Unloaded at Russian Port MOSCOW — Three refurbished Russian attack helicopters have been removed from the Alaed, a transport ship that was delivering them to Syria, the Russian news agency Interfax reported Friday. Interfax quoted an unnamed source saying that the trio of Mi-25 helicopters had been offloaded at the port of Baltiisk, in the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea. “Three helicopters were unloaded from the Alaed during a brief stay at Baltiisk. The helicopters are likely to be moved to the 150th Aircraft Repair Plant in the town of Lyublino-Novoye outside Kaliningrad, where they will be kept, pending other decisions,” the source told Interfax. The Interfax report did not say when the helicopters had been removed from the ship. Earlier reports indicated that the Alaed had departed Baltiisk on July 18, sailing in a northwestern direction. The ship’s owner told Interfax that the ship would sail to St Petersburg, where it would take on additional cargo, and then continue on to the Far East. Last week Russia said it would freeze arms sales and deliveries to Syria while the conflict there escalates. |
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