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-   -   HMS Plymouth the Museum ship.. Ex Falklands Conflict to be scrapped (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/480415-hms-plymouth-museum-ship-ex-falklands-conflict-scrapped.html)

NutLoose 20th Mar 2012 12:26

HMS Plymouth the Museum ship.. Ex Falklands Conflict to be scrapped
 
Ahhh nice way to remember the service on this anniversary...... NOT :mad::mad::mad:

HMS Plymouth to be Scrapped | Demotix.com

HMS PLYMOUTH IS DUE TO BE DECONSTRUCTED (SCRAPPED) LATER THIS YEAR. PLYMOUTH CITY COUNCIL, WHO REFUSED POINT BLANK TO HELP SECURE HMS PLYMOUTH A... | This is Plymouth

This was the ship the surrender document was signed on...

Is this country just barking mad, they spend 25 million quid to keep a painting in this country, but cannot even preserve our own history. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

racedo 20th Mar 2012 12:28

Hmmmmmm

Remember pre election how Tories were going to be the ones who protected the Armed Forces........

Reality is they have cut more than a peacenik.

Flag Track 20th Mar 2012 13:05

HMS Plymouth.
 
And yet they're fund-raising to preserve HMS Liverpool at Liverpool when she's paid off this month. Why I wonder no interest in the ships at Birkenhead?

The Helpful Stacker 20th Mar 2012 14:37


Remember pre election how Tories were going to be the ones who protected the Armed Forces........
Whilst I agree with your sentiment regarding the current armed forces how does this connect to a Type 12 that has been out of service and in the hands of various private owners for nearly 24 years?

Should the budget for the operational military be further compromised in order to provide funding for a museum piece?

Roadster280 20th Mar 2012 15:10

Maybe it's a "kick up the arse" from Peel Ports where she is docked, to those that want to preserve her. They need to pull their fingers out and "do something". Yes, it's a historic ship. But at the end of the day it's a clapped out frigate. Why not just preserve the wardroom table and the copy of the signal with it? If some want to keep it as a museum ship, then it's time to stump up.

I did visit her, Onyx and Bronington when they were open. Very interesting, and worth the money. But not in the same league as other museum ships/ship museums.

grandfer 20th Mar 2012 16:16

The Plymouth City Council threw too much money away supporting a totally useless cause by buying back a football ground !:mad::mad:

Not_a_boffin 20th Mar 2012 16:26

It's a critical mass problem. Unlike in the US where there is a slightly different attitude and therefore a multitude of very good museum ships (and aviation museums for that matter), over here there is a measure of indifference unless tied to a "core", eg Duxford, IWM/Belfast, Historic Dockyards in Portsmouth & Chatham.

Personally, I think it's a great shame, but unless the ship can be tied in with either Chatham or Portsmouth dockyards, she's a goner, South Georgia surrender venue or not.

glojo 20th Mar 2012 18:03

Nice thread as we are at present discussing 'The Most Daring Raid'

HMS Plymouth

There were over 200 ships company inside that vessel when that lead was flying through the skies.

Five incoming aircraft and although she managed to damage two, HMS Plymouth was hit by four bombs and numerous shells. One shell hit her flight deck, detonating a depth charge and starting a fire. Another bomb entered her funnel and failed to explode, whilst the other two destroyed her anti-submarine mortar but also failed to explode. Five men were injured in the attack and HMS Plymouth was assisted in putting the fires out by HMS Avenger.

She then underwent emergency repairs from the Stena Seaspread before rejoining the fleet. She then provided naval gunfire bombardment during the retaking of the island. HMS Plymouth left the Falklands with the County Class Destroyer HMS Glamorgan on June 21st, and returned to Rosyth on July 14th where she underwent full repairs. She had steamed 34,000 miles,
fired over nine hundred 4.5 inch shells and destroyed five enemy aircraft.

As soon as the attack was over the ship's company set about repairing their ship and 36 hours later she was able to steam to a safer location where more extensive repairs could be carried out before getting back into the action. 36 hours of continual, uninterrupted, hard work and during that 'break' they were able to relax working the mandatory defence watch scheme of six hours on watch, six hours off, 24hrs a day, 7 days a week.. 6 hours on six hours off only broken up by going to action stations when it was a case of one up, the lot up and goodbye to any chance of sleep. During that break the engineering\electrical staff would work far longer hours getting the ship ready for going straight back to the Battle Group.

That damage never prevented Plymouth from being present at every significant incident and even though she was one of the oldest warships in that conflict, she never was turned away from the fight...

She had steamed 34,000 miles, fired over nine hundred 4.5 inch shells and destroyed five enemy aircraft. All in a days work, no heroes, just sailors doing the job they were trained for, the job they were paid for and the job they were expected to perform

Each man had a Heart of Oak

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/..._Plymouth1.jpg
This picture was taken minutes after the attack

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/..._Plymouth2.jpg

Bomb damage to the flight deck and funnel as these projectiles hurtled through without 'stopping' :sad:

How ironic that the city of Plymouth will not set funds aside to put this ship on display, the city has asked for 'mementos' from this iconic vessel.

I hope they send them this

FODPlod 20th Mar 2012 21:25


Originally Posted by glojo
Nice thread as we are at present discussing 'The Most Daring Raid'...

Thank you glojo. You make it extremely difficult to avoid making certain comparisons regarding the duration, intensity and number of personnel directly affected in each of these 'daring' episodes of the Falklands war but I hope there is a place for both a Vulcan and HMS Plymouth in our preserved national heritage.

cosmiccomet 20th Mar 2012 21:59

and destroyed five enemy aircraft:=:=:=

from wikipedia,
"On June 8, Plymouth was attacked by Dagger fighter bombers of FAA Grupo 6. Able seaman Phil Orr fired her Sea Cat missile system at them, claiming the destruction of two aircraft. Later it was determined that no Dagger was lost in action that day."

Sorry guys but Sea Cat missiles had never hit an Argentine aircraft during the war.

That June 8th, 5 IAI Dagger A were flying to Bluff Cove but after spotting the HMS Plymouth they decided to change their target.

All of the IAI Dagger A returned safely to Rio Grande NAS.

NutLoose 20th Mar 2012 22:33

You know we dragged the hulk of SS Great Britain back from the Falklands and rebuilt her, we have poured money into the rebuild of the Cutty Sark, more into Victory over the years, and God knows how much has been poured into the Mary Rose, but this ship that also has an illustrious war history is going to end up as baked bean cans.... Could they not just park it next to Belfast? To have kept her for 30 years to now scrap it just seems wrong.

Would it not be ironic if some Argentinian scrappie bid for it to make a statement.

glojo 20th Mar 2012 22:56

Hi Cosmic,
If you are referring to my post you will see that I have stated that five aircraft were shot down by her during the whole conflict.

When ships are working together there will always be confusion as to who hit what or what was the final shell, missile that did the damage. When Plymouth was damaged on the 8th June she claims to have damaged two aircraft, she certainly did not claim to have destroyed two or indeed five. Bottom line was that bay was like Piccadilly Circus on a Saturday night, no one was sticking to the rules of the road, aircraft, lead, missiles, bombs and small arms fire filled the skies and we were VERY lucky to have only lost the ships we did.

As an aside, bar bills were 'accidentally' lost over the side whilst repairs were carried out but 'Davey Jones' refused to accept this book. It got washed ashore and subsequently handed back to the President of the Mess!

cosmiccomet 20th Mar 2012 23:06

Would it not be ironic if some Argentinian scrappie bid for it to make a statement.

I don't understand your statement...I am just pointing out a historical fact.

As far as I know this forum is open to any nationality, so you should accept the Argentine scrappie statements...

500N 20th Mar 2012 23:25

Cosmic

I think that last sentence of his was a separate comment from his previous paragraph.

I think what he was saying was, the Argies couldn't sink it during the war so
it would be a laugh if an Argie scrapper purchased it if it is sold for scrap.

Milo Minderbinder 20th Mar 2012 23:39

It works on more than one level as a joke:
the Falklands war started (as far as the Brits are concerned) with Dravidoff and his team of scrappers raising the flag at Grytviken while they were tearing down the old whale boiling plant there. If they'd not raised the flag, things may have been so much different. They had contracts to remove the metal - and if anything were doing the world an environmental favour. They just raised that flag...
And of course theres the irony (as already pointed out) of towing a rusting collection of scrap metal plates from the Falklands and rebuilding it into SS Great Britain

NutLoose 20th Mar 2012 23:40

Correct 500N and Milo :D

The war started over a scrappie hauling up a Argentinian flag on British soil, it ended with the surrender being signed on this ship which represented Britain and it could end by it sitting in an Argentinian scrapyard flying an Argentinian flag as they scrap it... ironic.

racedo 20th Mar 2012 23:57


I think what he was saying was, the Argies couldn't sink it during the war so
it would be a laugh if an Argie scrapper purchased it if it is sold for scrap.
No less Ironic than going to war with the US against Japan in revenge for attacking US fleet in Pearl Harbour and then sinking one of the ships years later..

500N 21st Mar 2012 00:02

Racedo

Yes, good point. I bet no one thought that ship would end up where it did
and in the circumstances after what it had already survived.

I clearly remember the day it hit the media and the photos and then of course the speculation about flying the Jolly Roger and then it actually being flown on entry to port:ok:.

diginagain 21st Mar 2012 00:51

This one?
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9895/hmsconqueror.jpg

2,3,4

500N 21st Mar 2012 01:12

Yes, that one.

I wonder if he got in hot water over it ?

Anyone know what the Captain did after the Falklands ?

NutLoose 21st Mar 2012 01:34

Yup there was a lot of flak over it at the time, the facts that it was traditional seemed to get lost in the furore.

diginagain 21st Mar 2012 01:40

According to THIS

..........THE South Devon man who sunk the Argentine navy cruiser General Belgrano with the loss of 323 lives in the 1982 Falklands War is to retire as Paignton Zoo's manager and administrator.

Chris Wreford-Brown who was Commander of the Royal Navy nuclear submarine HMS Conqueror when it went to the South Atlantic to reclaim the Falkland Islands and gave the order to fire the fateful torpedoes which sank the cruiser, has worked at the zoo for 15 years.

500N 21st Mar 2012 01:45

Nutloose
Yet they didn't seem to say much, (or I missed it, not being "in country") when the recent Sub came back into port flying the Jolly Roger with Tomahawks all over it.

diginagain
Thanks for that. Interesting.

glojo 21st Mar 2012 09:37


As far as I know this forum is open to any nationality, so you should accept the Argentine scrappie statements...
Good morning Cosmic,
The day a member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces looses their sense of humour will be the same day as Lord Nelson urinates on the hordes of sight see'rs in Trafalgar Square. What you are seeing is a type of humour, certainly NOT offensive words and as can be seen on a different thread your presence here is GREATLY appreciated as are your informative comments about this recent conflict...

You are in safe hands and hopefully there will be no ill words said about historical events...

Just remember we won....... :ugh::{


>>




>>


The last International football match, plus the one before it :ok:

NURSE 21st Mar 2012 11:18

This is what the Lottery should be being used to save!
However its funds are tied up with the Olympics!
The MoD should be involved and so should the department of Culture media and Sport.

The Helpful Stacker 21st Mar 2012 11:21

The MoD should have no involvement in any form other than perhaps providing access to historical records for anyone who takes on HMS Plymouth. It most certainly should not have any financial involvement.

grandfer 21st Mar 2012 16:32

Praps when the couple of weeks of Lottery funded sports in the summer are over it can concentrate on funding more of this country's heritage projects & other more worthy causes .:mad:

Jimlad1 21st Mar 2012 17:51

Why should the MOD be involved in bailing out a former piece of property that is being scrapped due to the near inevitable failure of a range of businesses to make money?

Roadster280 21st Mar 2012 19:00

Depends on how you look at it.

No Army/Navy/Air Force is going to tell its men & women that they are anything other than the best. The fine traditions of days gone by exemplify the way things ought to be done, and that we are good at it. It fosters good performance by the service members, because they are "being the best".

I can therefore see why a few quid to Peel Ports to cover the cost of the berth that's been used, a tug to pull the thing to Pompey and a couple of buckshee tins of paint would be a wise investment by the MOD. Particularly if it results in little Johnny saying "Dad, I want to be a Matelot when I grow up".

On the other hand, what's more important? Rescuing this old tub, or a couple of extra flight hours for crews training for operational deployment? Obviously the training. But then you could say that about a Mess refurb, or new drains, or re-skinning an 80 year old hangar. Bullets, bombs, rations and fuel. You wouldn't have much of an MOD in 20 years though.

XV277 22nd Mar 2012 00:00

If I recall correctly, one of the O Class boats also flew the Jolly Roger on return to port after the Falklands

500N 22nd Mar 2012 00:34

XV277

I thought sub that sunk the Belgrano was the only one
that went into action or does flying the JR just symbolize
returning from a combat patrol regardless of weapons not used.

Milo Minderbinder 22nd Mar 2012 00:43

500N

See Modern day Jolly Roger
Onyx - being diesel electric and so quiet when on batteries - was used for Special Ops and it looks like the Joly Roger was for those insertions

500N 22nd Mar 2012 00:49

Milo
Good point. Thanks for the link.
She also sunk the Sir Galahad and sent it to the bottom of the ocean.
I liked the recent JR with the Tomahawks on it.

Milo Minderbinder 22nd Mar 2012 01:01

followiing on from that, take a look at this one
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/chr1sp/3068308030/

HMS Sealion
Coming alongside HMS Dolphin, returning from Falklands Patrol. in 1987
Showing jolly roger with two daggers (special forces insertions) and a Chilean flag.
WTF???

500N 22nd Mar 2012 01:04

Milo
Yes, I saw that (didn't see the Chilean flag though !!!)

Can anyone add any more background to it ?


I would hope that someone in the military has plans for
insertion onto to the mainland and recces already carried out.

Courtney Mil 22nd Mar 2012 09:50

The Chelean flag was flown because of their visit to Punta Arenas on the way home.

Milo Minderbinder 22nd Mar 2012 09:55

But that still leaves the question of what SF operations were being carried out in 1987.
I guess we're not likely to get an answer to that

NURSE 22nd Mar 2012 13:20

Would be interesting to see the reaction if XM607 was sold for scrap this year.

Roadster280 22nd Mar 2012 13:29

XM607 isn't costing anything though, and isn't going to sink in the dock. HMS Plymouth may very well do so. Bronington even worse. I believe that in effect, nobody owns Plymouth, as her former owners are wound up. The ship has a de facto "keeper", Peel Ports. This is simply because she lies in one of their docks.

Jimlad1 22nd Mar 2012 13:45

The problem is that museum ships are ruinously expensive, and cost an utter fortune to keep going. Unlike static aircraft, which can be given a lick of paint and very basic maintenance, with a static ship, you need to spend a lot of time and money maintaining the hull to ensure it doesnt spring leaks, and that the ship is still watertight.

Add to that onerous access issues, h&S nightmares and a whole catalogue of interesting flammable or hazardous materials and you realise that ships are complex beasts to look after in retirement.


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