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First wave on Tirpitz 617 Sqn, second wave IX Sqn. Bomb camera film from 9 Sqn clearly show the Tirpitz still firing. Evidence, evidence!
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PN no they wouldn't. It is written in Squadron Operations. As for 9 Squadron I haven't got a clue. I will try to find something. Can't take the glory, well a small amount of it, if they did can we.
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 7002762)
War is war, scruples are for afterwards. I feel that, if you weren't there, you don't have a valid viewpoint.
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Finally managed to get the gadget to work & watched the program this evening. Really enjoyed it - listening to those lovely engines start up, listening to the gentlemen who flew in the plane, and the one who shot at them. Very moving.
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Barnes Wallis sank the Tirpitz. The Lancasters were his delivery system. ;)
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All that said, it was great to hear the old boys talking about the war. I just wish they had been given more air time because, as we on Pprune know, they have so much more to say! |
I enjoyed it very much.
here's why: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ml#post3498855 Incidentally, the chap who's name I couldn't remember was Jack Hawkins. |
I sank the Tirpitz....and so did my wife! :rolleyes:
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I sank the Tirpitz....and so did my wife! Hope Im not stepping on toes here but from a total outsiders point of view regards to the Tripitz. Shouldn't it be the outcome that's celebrated rather than who pushed the bomb release that's argued? BW |
My own thoughts are that I usually enjoy watching documentaries but I am wise enough, old enough and ugly enough to accept that they will usually frustrate those that have a detailed knowledge of that specific topic
Is it fair to suggest that: a) This program MUST be entertaining b) It will be shown in a way that will reflect the opinion of those making the program c) Experts or anaroks that watch this item will tear it to pieces d) Licence is usually used in descriptions, images or names... I watch documentaries depicting Naval events and we regularly see footage of ships that were the wrong class, the wrong country or even the wrong time era. I know that but Mr Joe Public would not and they still enjoy watching the program. d) Bottom line is that I usually find them entertaining and it provokes me into researching the topic to get a better in sight ENJOY the program for what it was and forgive those that may have got certain parts of it incorrect. At least they called the aircraft by its right name and always showed the correct type As an outsider looking in, I enjoyed the program, I certainly did NOT get the impression it was critical of anyone. Rather than post a link I have copied this message as it deserves a second hearing.
Originally Posted by MMHendrie1
Bomber Boys seemed to me to be aimed at giving long overdue recognition to the RAF Bomber Command aircrew who were treated shamefully by their country. Their losses were appalling: 55,573 out of the 125,000 aircrew who served in the Command. And the manner of their passing was often frightful.
Shown on prime time television, the programme was aimed at a largely lay audience to highlight the sacrifices of young men charged with a terrible duty. They were trained to do a job which they did to the very best of their abilities knowing the risks and their chances while suspecting the appalling reality of their likely end. For much of World War II, it was RAF Bomber Command that was the only realistic means of taking the fight to an enemy who knew only Total War and who waged it unmercifully. Yes, it would have been nice to hear a little more about the Battles and the Blenheims, the Hampdens and the Wellingtons, the Stirlings and the Halifaxes, but perhaps this was not the programme to tell that story. If it had tried to it may not have had the same wide appeal to the public at large. The reality is that for countless numbers of people the Lancaster will always be associated with the Bomber Offensive just as the Spitfire will always be credited with ‘winning’ the Battle of Britain. And as far as who did what to the Tirpitz, then that discussion is best continued at Happy Hours at Lossiemouth or Marham, or between the RAF and the RN. And I am sure that it will be for many years to come. Last night’s story was about the sacrifice of a generation of young men, many of them in their teens. It was not meant to fuel or to close a debate about the merits of the area bombing of German cities during WWII versus so-called precision bombing of targets in Germany, which was often nothing of the sort. But for those of us who have relied upon the comfort of a nuclear umbrella, under successive governments, it seems slightly hypocritical to seek the moral high ground when discussing area bombing. For me, Bomber Boys was not about a bloke called Harris or someone called Churchill, or even about Ewan McGregor (although both brothers eloquently told a long-overdue story). Bomber Boys was about some ordinary blokes who were called upon to do extraordinary things. And then they were forgotten. I say well done the BBC, and the McGregors, for remembering such a generation. |
Well said and quoted glojo
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:ok: Ay to that Glojo.
Whilst IX and 617 will never agree on who sank the Tirpitz, IX Sqn do have the honour of being the only Tornado Sqn to have lost the "Bulkhead". :E |
Saudih - but only because the staish at the time was ex-OC 6 foot seven and allowed an "inside job".
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Allowed an Inside Job?
It took the RAFP 2 days to discover the window that was missing in the crewroom. By which time the Bulkhead was in the UK, the tools used were back in the Dutch hire shop, and OC 617's NO 1 was pressed and ready for his pending interview.... |
Having just read this thread from start to finish in one go, I have to say that I am impressed at the small degree of thread creep. Even the Tirpitz issue can be excused as it was featured in the programme.
I think one of the more telling comments is that it is pointless to compare contemporary opinion with current PC thoughts. I, too, grew up during the war, and in Croydon too. I can still vividly remember cowering in the Anderson shelter during a raid with my father pacing up and down outside muttering "bastards - bastards ------" whilst my mother and I were beseeching him to get inside. I, too was shot at on the way to school by a marauding aircraft. Lousy aiming - it killed a horse in a nearby field! And I can remember being paniced by a salvo of V1s on the way home one day. No-one in my family had the slightest doubt that our bombing offensive was the way to go and that the more Germans that perished the better. Later when I was training in Canada and came in contact with some or the new Luftwaffer pilots doing jet conversions (all ex wartime pilots), I found that they were good guys and just like us. When I told my father he came close to disowning me. I have had the priveledge to have flown both currently flying Lancasters and to have spent a great deal of time with ex wartime bomber aircrew at their sqn reunions. I have found them all to be wonderful men and I cannot say too strongly how glad I am that they are finally getting some belated recognition for the sacrifices they and their colleagues made. Not once did I detect a hint of PTSD; I guess they were made of sterner stuff in those days. It is a sober reflection that (this was in the 80s) old sqn associations were still strong (some of those units may only have been in existence for 6 months or so as their losses were so huge that they were subsumed into another) whereas others still current have difficulty in keeping an association going. Yes, there were issues that we in the business could carp about in the programme, but it was on prime time TV. A purely historical piece would have been on BBC4 at some unpopular hour. It achieved its aim to inform the Great British Public about the enormous losses incurred on their behalf; and if it helps fund raising for the Bomber Command memorial I will have no complaints. |
Pontifex.
Spot on. :D |
I thought the bulkhead had moved between the two squadrons on more than one occasion. When IX came back from Cyprus to Waddington in the mid 70s, OC IX and a party of his men put it into the small arms bay in the station armoury. I remember being amused by their being so paranoid that they padlocked it to the radiator. It stayed there until it was built into their new crewroom. If I recall, it had a painting of the ship in stormy seas, and the legend "Gegen Engeland" which seemed like a mix of Dutch and German.
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Same sort of skulduggery and deception went on when it arrived at Lossie - happy days. Thought the programme was excellent, every now and again the BBC pull of a little gem and remind us what we pay the licence fee for. The two McGregors were good choice, worked really well.
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For what it's worth, I thought that the programme was very dis-jointed.
First, what on earth did the inclusion of Cliff Spink bring to it – nothing. What did the ‘training’ of the two brothers bring to it, nothing – especially the DC3 bits, other than to pan the time out; and the navigation piece, I thought was, and almost certainly to the viewer, pointless, The appearance of one of the brothers (shirt out/jeans/ unkempt hair/unshaven, giggly) was, in comparison, to others in the programme, rude. Their dwelling upon cruelty to the German populace was in my view misplaced: they rightly referred to Dresden as a scene of terrible destruction in the latter part of the war (overly concentrating on its moral awfulness, with which I only partly agree), but strangely choosing to visit Hamburg (instead of Dresden) and stressing that city’s plight, although it was an earlier war target, and probably more justifiably so in its time and place (and certainly so in comparison to the programme’s description of Coventry). By so doing, the producers, to me, purposely hyped up their popular moralistic message. That said, the historical video clips were, again, unique, and the veterans were truly amazing. A production for those of today, some reality, some modern morality, and some lack of understanding of what it meant to be bombed the f8ck out of in London and many other cities. Overall, a very weak and shallow production, in my opinion of course! |
First, what on earth did the inclusion of Cliff Spink bring to it? |
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