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-   -   More delays for the F-35 (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/473481-more-delays-f-35-a.html)

Courtney Mil 7th Jan 2012 17:24

FA 18 E (or F, if we can find some old navs somewhere) ticks all the boxes. Not a stop-gap buy, the jet could fill ALL our current fast jet roles well into the future. Stealth is expensive and sits on an exponential expense scale - diminishing returns and all that. The cutting edge technology, the same.

ALL our newest generation aircraft are well below FOC, IOC in some cases. Proven technology, new build, is what our armed forces need. Some commie bloke once said - quantity has a quality all of it's own. I know someone will quote me and correct me here, but if we want to cut costs and still maintain any sort of capability and equip our fantasy carrier, find something reliable and cost-effective.

But then, will our government buy what we need at a good price or what will look better in the UK plc balance sheet?

Standing by for a rash of static...

Justanopinion 7th Jan 2012 17:39


FA 18 E (or F, if we can find some old navs somewhere) ticks all the boxes. Not a stop-gap buy, the jet could fill ALL our current fast jet roles well into the future. Stealth is expensive and sits on an exponential expense scale - diminishing returns and all that. The cutting edge technology, the same.
Completely agree Courtney. The SuperHornet with AESA provides everything we need minus the "first day of the war" capability, is well proven,can operate at sea and still has growth potential. A reason the USN are not in a rush for JSF.

We already have a cadre of pilots becoming qualified on it also.

Always a Sapper 7th Jan 2012 17:42

With the proposed US cut backs and our own carriers not coming on line for at least 7 years why not just go the whole hog and either buy or borrow a s/h carrier complete with an airwing to 'tide' us over until the F35 is in full production and our own super doper flat tops have been launched, gone through their workup and had all the niggly bits fixed.

Cull a few more Admirals and their hangers on and we may even be able to afford two.

Tis only a thought...

Courtney Mil 7th Jan 2012 17:47


Originally Posted by Justanopinion
everything we need minus the "first day of the war" capability

Even that's OK. The French seem happy to get stuck in these days. We'll just turn up a day late with our gleaming F18s.

The Americans send appologies for being late for the last two world wars, but promise to make up by being really early for the next one!!! :ok:

Mach Two 7th Jan 2012 18:08

Oh, YES!!! I could handle flying that.

Dear Mr Cameron,

Please save a fortune on the defence budget by consolidating all our fast jet operations into one type that really can do everything you will require of us. Think of the benefits. The MoD would only need one FJ logistics stream, you could finally pull out of the Eurofighter millstone, people would stop complaining about you thowing away our carrier air and we could buy shares in Boeing.

The GR4s will easily see you though untill we can take delivery of F18Fs and you would be able to move your Tornado crews (that you value so dearly) directly across to this type. We could then do it all for you. Probably even more than you know.

I'd be very happy to advise you further on this matter. Please feel free to contact me.

Yours as always,

Mach Two.

cokecan 7th Jan 2012 18:51

is Rafale that much better at 'first day of war' than SuperHornet?

SH isn't Dave C, but SH with Sky Shadow ALCM, ALARM and the door kicked-in with a stealthy Tommahawk barrage is, imv, going to cope with any ADE that the UK is going to have to cope with that the US's B-2/F-35/F-22's haven't already done the dirty deed on. more importantly, its actually available and the price difference means that we'd be able to get a decent weapons package fitted - Meteor, ALARM, SS ALCM, Harpoon(?), EPW IV, Brimstone.

imagine a single platform FJ fleet, all multi-role, full A2A and A2G capability, and all carrier capable....

Justanopinion 7th Jan 2012 20:31

Not sure that we would need WSOs unless we get some Growlers, the E will do just fine..........

Seanthebrave 7th Jan 2012 21:40

I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that the Super Hornet is the solution to our requirements beyond the mid 2020s but I certainly think it will be easily the best aircraft for the carrier strike role until then!

Easy Street 7th Jan 2012 22:02

Hornet E or F?
 
Single-seat for A-A, two-seat for A-G: there's a reason the fleet of F15E derivatives around the world is still growing!

The UK's move to single-seat A-G is largely based on 2 assumptions:

A) A trend away from "man-in-the-loop" weapons: e.g. the gradual replacement of laser-guided weapons with GPS-guided ones

B) Succesful development of sensor fusion: the idea that multiple inputs, (e.g. datalink, radar, targeting pod, helmet-mounted cueing system) can all be brought together to produce one easily-assimilated picture for a heavily-tasked solo pilot

Unfortunately A) does not apply in all instances - witness the heavy use of the laser-guided DMS Brimstone during both HERRICK and ELLAMY. This is a weapon that needs aiming to within a couple of feet accuracy, which against moving targets takes 100% of the sensor operator's capacity - not ideal for a solo pilot. GPS jamming and moving targets mean that there will always be a need for designation into the future. As for B) - we'll see. To my understanding, it has not yet developed anywhere near as far as hoped. I think the UK has taken quite a risk by going single-seat only post-GR4 (although all will be aware that there are quite enough pilots around to fill back seats once the last WSOs have gone!)

Courtney Mil 7th Jan 2012 22:13

Ah, the single seat vs two seat debate again. This could run and run. Most of the single seat guys will vote for, well yo guess, and vice versa. Flown both, loved both, in a shooting war give me the second brain and kit operator any day. Just saying.

No responses accepted from anyone that's only ever flown single seat.

:cool:

Justanopinion 7th Jan 2012 22:24

The E and the F are exactly the same aircraft in terms of sensors, kit etc and the F can be operated by pilot only ( although never is operationally). The biggest advantage the F has is in FAC A and that is about all. Theoretically 2 heads should be better than one but I think you'll find E squadrons disputing that

Easy Street 7th Jan 2012 22:27

Courtney - Bullseye! Single-seat is fantastic for chest-puffing in peacetime, but when the sh*t starts flying, the more brains, eyes and ears the merrier!

Courtney Mil 7th Jan 2012 22:32


Theoretically 2 heads should be better than one but I think you'll find E squadrons disputing that
I think that was one of my points.

Seanthebrave 7th Jan 2012 22:37

Is the option of pilot and co-pilot available vs Pilot and WSO? The rear cockpit has all the same systems as the front, does it not?

Easy Street 7th Jan 2012 22:54

Yes indeed, and that is exactly how the UK would have to man it once the last WSOs have moved on.... we have now closed our WSO training system! Nowt wrong with putting 2 pilots in together; in fact you could argue it would make for better co-operation as each would instinctively know what the other was supposed to be doing and when, helping each to know when to talk and when to shut up.... this can be a problem with some of the chopped-early-in-flying-training WSO brethren... :E

Justanopinion 7th Jan 2012 22:55


Theoretically 2 heads should be better than one but I think you'll find E squadrons disputing that
I think that was one of my points.
The Superhornet is a great platform to compare the wonderful single seat vs two seat debate as it performs exactly the same role single and two seat. There is no discernible advantage to the two seat squadron apart from FAC A. That was my point.

Easy Street 7th Jan 2012 23:02

I'm fully prepared to admit that the single-seat aircraft can perform as well as the two-seat aircraft in Iraq- or Afghan-style scenarios where threat avoidance is a simple matter of staying above the MANPAD envelope. The point is how well do the 2 aircraft perform under "full war" conditions? Since there hasn't been a proper "full war" scenario since either variant of the Super Hornet entered service we can't know - unless anyone has observed them on RED FLAG? I would still rather go up against the massed hordes with someone thinking about the target whilst I'm concentrating on missile-dodging :ok:

Not_a_boffin 8th Jan 2012 09:43

Yes indeed, and that is exactly how the UK would have to man it once the last WSOs have moved on.... we have now closed our WSO training system!

Reasonably sure that the Observer pipeline is still there......

Finnpog 8th Jan 2012 09:56

And perhaps the Observer pathway could be augmented by buying places on the USN NFO classes for the relevant aircraft type ( or types - if we eventually found a crock of gold at the end of the rainbow and went down the Growler and Hawkeye routes as well).


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