The BBC news team is as bad as any other for misquoting and accuracy, the official channels are the only reliable sources. Three hours on and no suggestion from official sources of a survivor doesn't bode well.

It seems to be confirmed in the media. Names are being withheld however.

Red Arrows pilot killed in crash near Bournemouth Airport after festival display | Mail Online

According to the Bournemouth Air Festival on social networking sites:
The MOD have confirmed the death of Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging of the Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team, The Red Arrows. Bournemouth Borough Council and Bournemouth Air Festival will issue a statement shortly.

MoD and Police have confirmed Flt Lt Jon Egging has been killed.

BBC article has also changed in the last minute or so to report that pilot died and that MOD has confirmed. Looks like this is official, not speculation.
:sad:

BBC confirming death.

:sad:

Reds Crash
 

One and All,

I have been monitoring this Thread since the outset and have the following to point out:

The lack of information initially re the pilot did not look good and the sad news we now have was inevitable I think. A great loss.

I hope those of you above who have posted opinions and 'facts' are ashamed of yourselves.

The deceased man was a Red, which was his job - an honour in itself. He was also no doubt a family man - I have not looked so do not know any details. For those I have mentioned above, think of this:

His father /mother / wife / son /daughter etc, happen to be looking at this site when they see the thread pop up. They would probably then be hit with all the emotions of such news. Is it..........Isn't it...............followed by the knock on the door. Life changing.

Before you post w*&%y comments, consider the effect on the other people.

Think about it.


TN:ugh:

To clarify, afaik, Op Minimise means no Comms until NOK have been informed, which I sincerely hope they have been by now. Fly high Red4.

Speculation is inevitable - but is best held in check whilst the Inquiry into the tragedy is conducted. There are numerous possibilities as to the reason for this tragedy and it will take many months to ascertain which of those possibilities could be probabilities or potential causes. I would expect that it will be at least a year before a probable cause could be identified.

As one who once served in the RAF and who has been a member of a Board of Inquiry (that is the 3-person team convened to investigate Service accidents), I would join the voices of restraint on here. The simple truth is that no one knows what happened yet, and it is appropriate such a short time after the death of one of the RAF's finest young men to be sensitive to his family and the countless people close to the Red Arrows who will have been devastated by this tragic event. I fully understand the natural desire of people to know, and indeed the massive public interest in such a high-profile event, but everyone has to be allowed a period of privacy for even a short time at a time like this. If we have genuine news or insight, that is great - but surely it can wait for a day or so as a mark of respect.

From recollection, it is the duty of the President of the Board to issue a 48-hour signal which will outline the initial, but not binding view, of what actually happened. That may just say, 'Cause Undetermined'. If the military Board of Inquiry do not know, then the chances of anyone on here knowing more would seem slight to me.

Red Arrow Crash. My view
 

I was on the airfield and watched the aircraft do there run and break as usual. Red 4 pulled right as usual but it then looked as if he fails to pull out of the bank and lost altitude. I lost him behind the trees at about 50 feet after he made no obvious attitude correction.
He did not make any radio calls. The calls came from another red arrows pilot. After a few seconds red 1 made a call on the civilian channel calling a Mayday for the Reds. He then asked his crew on their private frequency if anyone spotted were it went in and one replied "there is wreckage in the river boss".
Sad day,
RIP Jon.

Suzukiraider

Thank you for an accurate report

I had the honor of a day with the Reds back in Feb this year, and spend some time chatting with Flt Lt. Jon Egging.

I had expected the reds to be the ultimate 'Nigels', but they were the soundest, nicest, most passionate people I've met so far in this business.

This news has knocked me back a bit, he was such a good bloke. The aviation world is a poorer place.

Rest in Peace

A little bit moe info here

Crash pilot's wife watched air show - Yahoo!

Was his father a Phil Egging, training captain in BA, who was a top bloke?

Terribly sad. I watched the display at Bournemouth this afternoon and was impressed. We were unaware of the tragedy until later. Condolences to the family of the pilot and the Reds and Blues of the RAF Aerobatic Team.

Group Captain Simon Blake said on Sky News that the team will be grounded until the enquiry and it is too early to say if the team will be displaying at all for the remainder of the season.

We now have to wait for the enquiry to ascertain what happened. It is pointless speculating on the cause until the facts emerge.

BBC news earlier referred to the Red Arrows as a 'RAF regiment'... :ugh::=

My thoughts of course are with Jon Egging's family.

Several things here on these threads and the Daily Mail/Channel4/google news serve to really annoy me....please stop calling the finest aerobatic display team in the world a "stunt" team.

The Telegragh and others say Jon is the first Red Arrows fatality in 33 years...this does a great dis-service to the likes of Flt Lt Neil "Clachy" MacClachlan sadly killed while with the Reds in 1988, another great pilot and friend to those that new him.

Well, I hope people on PPRuNe have learned a thing or two from this tragedy.

KiloNovember52
I hope you have re-texted your friend and told them using suitable expletives what a 'fool' they are. If the message is suitably abrasive you may also consider reading it out aloud whilst staring in to the bathroom mirror.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

You should really know better.

For the person asking what Op Minimise was, then yes, it would be stopping all communications as quickly as possible. No mobile calls, no calls off the Squadron or in to the Sqn etc etc, all in a bid to ensure that the potential for even a small amount of misinformation is at the absolute minimum. The effects on family members of misinformation that leads them to believe one thing when another is the truth can add dramatically to the devastation that may await.

Perhaps after seeing yet another example of folks on here feeling the need to be first to post with their 'breaking news, world exclusive', PPRuNe ought to consider imposing an Op Minimise on similar events in the future. Perhaps simply a thread with the first news report of an occurrence with a statement that further 'official press releases' will be added as they are made available to the media, the thread being locked and unavailable for any input other than those of the forum moderator. After the official statements have been released then I guess it's then just back to open season for everyone to wildly speculate upon. I am sure we could all display the dignity of waiting a few hours whilst facts are gathered and family members are informed either way, rather than wanting to feel the petty self satisfaction of thinking we got the first 'breaking news exclusive post' on the forum.

I can understand your anger but there were reports (speculative or otherwise) that the pilot had ejected, I think one saying the pilot had been pulled from a river....a witness may see a part or debris in the sky & think it was an ejection; whatever.
I'd agree that when these accidents occur within reason the thread needs at least heavy policing to stop the comments that only add to speculation & grief.

Load Toad

I didn't mean to convey anger, if I did I apologise. I was good friends with a family, the husband of whom was involved in a mid-air. His wife was told her husband was ok, in Hospital, but sadly the other Sqn colleague involved had died. 40 minutes later she had a knock at the door informing her there had been a terrible mix up and that they had got it the wrong way around. Her husband was in fact dead (the other woman now 40 minutes in to initial grief being told her husband is in fact alive). The woman says that the pain and intensity of that moment she was told, 'there has been a mistake, he is not alive, he is the one that's dead', lives with her to this day.

I suppose my point is that the threads should not need heavy policing on these occasions. We should act responsibly.

Sorry fellah but I disagree very strongly with you! Sad though these accidents are; this is still a 'rumours' forum... Period:=

Since the Wright-Flyer first got off the ground at KittyHawk, people - both experts and laymen - have been gossiping, speculating, arguing about all things related to aviation, especially accidents! It is human nature.

I think some of you should come down off your high horses here:rolleyes: I seriously doubt very much that relatives of the deceased are really going to get the news for the first time from PPRUNE! And what if they do? Is it any different from reading about it on the Beeb's website? Maybe we should all stop breathing because the air may be contaminated!

Henry09,

Not all ejections are injury free or successful. Some of the news stories published stated the pilot did eject however suffered serious injuries. The police statement to the media said the pilot was not with the aircraft, and they could not confirm or otherwise if the pilot had attempted to eject.

We need to let the MoD to get on with their investigation to piece together what exactly happened.

Sad day all round.

:sad:

I believe the incident you refer to happened during practise and that this is the first fatality during a display flight.

I would whinge at you HD since you are (were), IMHO, a respected poster here.

What was evident yesterday that a level of censorship was going on by the press, no doubt via strings being pulled behind the scenes. When the outcome and name were confirmed by the MoD, the Sky News reporter stated (and he was on scene) they were aware from an early stage the outcome, but had been asked (and largely obeyed) keeping quiet.

Your post (1447) states which is unattributed, and I, amongst others, placed undue weight on you passing on unsubstantiated tattle.

Your earlier post was attributed but still repeated details later withdrawn from all press accounts. However, it was preserved here.

Hopefully lesson (as has been learnt countless times) is:
1. Why the rush to be the one to post potentially devastating news to a family, when there is a chance you get caught out later (as you have)? It has hardly added to your credibility, and for me, destroyed what you had.
2. If there is something in a news link, then provide the link - do not cut'n'paste the contents. Then if there is a mistake, the provider can correct it (or be persuaded to withdraw it), and you are protected.

NoD

I am not trying to speculate but I think that initial reports were a little hasty and the press trying to get to the facts too soon.

Loose Rivets says: From the DT:

I think that the latter gives a more accurate report. I am no expert on bang seats (only JPs). Perhaps a late exit, or could the seat have been fired on impact, is this possible?

I may have answered my own question:

In contrast to some of the exchanges in this thread, how very dignified were the words of eulogy of Dr Emma Egging, who had watched her husband earlier during the Bournemouth display. And how magnanimous of her to comment publicly so soon after the tragedy.

The point about repeating 'speculation' regarding the cause of any accident, or indeed the condition of those involved is not that it shows lack of respect for potential casualties, but that however we dress it up, it shows utter contempt for their loved ones.

They will be searching high and low for any snippet of information, and will invest massive emotion in whatever they find. They will come here! Put yourselves in their position, because one day this situation just may come to visit you! Then you may not wish people to be quite so 'gung ho'!

This appears to be a classic situation of the facts being clear at an early stage, and in the full glare of our nations media. But the laborious process of informing relatives takes time. They are the only people who deserve timely and accurate information! To many of us it is simply 'news'. To the family these are moments they will remember, with pain, for the rest of their lives.

Do YOU really want to be the one adding to that pain? Think twice in future.

I agree that the comments of Dr Emma Egging were humbling in the extreme. our only thoughts now should be with her, and all those most closely involved. There are people now tasked with discovering the cause of this tragic accident. How about, we just let them get on with it eh? Now that would be a fitting tribute.

Do you remember the BA036 Heathrow emergency landing? A certain captain got ****** over because of rumours that turned out to be completely untrue in the end. Instead of receiving the praise he really deserved, he was left defending himself every day to his colleagues and friends.

A little speculation (based on the facts) can be fine but it usually develops into wild theories which the media pick up on and report to the general public as "words from aviation experts".

RIP J Egging

I may have answered my own question:

Quote:
21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection


I thought that was Dick Lotinga

Quote:
21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection


"I thought that was Dick Lotinga"

Nope. Definitely Curly Hurst. :=

Nope. Definitely Curly Hurst.

Many thanks.
Apologies to Dick and his reputation.

Quote from telegraph online.

Nick Woods, 36, told how he discovered the pilot's body in the Stour.
Mr Woods was enjoying a barbecue with his family about 300 yards from the river. The dozen or so family and friends, including his parents and his three-year old son Archie, heard the roar of the jet at about 1.50pm.
"It came in so low across the field. I could see it was in trouble," he said.
"I just shouted "Everybody inside!" because I didn't know how far it would spread when it crashed.
"The next moment my friend Finlay shouted 'He's down!'
"It just sounded like an explosion when it hit – no flames but a huge ripping sound. I saw debris flying in the air.
"Finlay and I ran across the field. The Red Arrow was on the bank. We jumped into the water, found the ejector seat, pulled it up, but it was clean – no-one in it.
"I swam across the river and saw the parachute, and that's where I found him.
"He was near a steep bank, in deep water. He was very badly injured, dead. I was pretty shaken.

For all those complaining about whats posted on this thread, be it fact, rumour, advice or opinion, if you don't like it go read another. People have a choice to write what the wish (within reason) on forums, and you have a choice what to read. This is a rumour site and as such rightly or wrongly rumours are posted on it. It appears all the posts about being which red turned out to be fact. Those of you telling us to not post this and don't quote that, why are you reading this thread other than to find out information. As for Journo's on this site pretty sure phone hacking is a better source of reliable info than PPRuNe.

The media always tend to report the pilot avoiding habitation when there is a lot of about.
Having read an awful lot of accident reports as a Station Flight Safety Officer, the aircraft turned out to be already out of control in a large percentage of cases. This was for mechanical, aerodynamic or pilot incapacitation reasons.

On the other hand, there are examples of pilots self-sacrificially avoiding habitation, and indeed trying to unaware that a crippled aircraft was out of control. We certainly should assume Flt Lt Egging would have considered avoiding action till we know otherwise.

As others have stated, the initial report may well be able to determine whether he attempted ejection. We should wait for this.

RIP

Absolutely, what a lady.

WillDAQ....just to answer your question....

Modern ejection seats are way better than they used to be, but they still have their limitations. The zero zero is based on zero altitude and zero forward airspeed....but what still needs to be considered in the seat's "operating envelope" is the 3rd "zero" which is rate of descent or sink rate.

Just to paint an extreme, imagine being out of control & descending at 20,000 feet per minute, you'd need to eject well above the ground to allow the chute to open fully and give you a few swings before touching down......ie: if you pulled the handle just a few feet before the ground, it simply won't work.

That being said, the rate of descent in the posted video of the accident appears to be far from excessive.....which would allow a lowish ejection.

IMHO, I don't agree with the idea he intentionally rode it in to avoid built up areas.....if that was the case, you'd do your best, then at some point give it away....it all looked very benign.

best wishes to his family.

.......but, over to the investigators.

A pilot like him will never crash like this by a simple misjudgement. I can only see three scenarios:

G induced Loss of Consciousness (however, extremely unlikely for a Red)

A medical condition (can happen to any of us, any time)

Technical malfunction with flight controls

The Red has always been my favourite group. The tight formations kept in view of the crowd is poetry in the air.

RIP

With respect, some of you seem to be under the impression that "the media" and PPRune are two different things. They're not. They're sources of information distributed to a readership.

Those who fail to realise this will end up tying themselves in knots trying to justify their own speculation and guesswork while simultaneously condemning other outlets, like the BBC, who are doing their best to feed your curious minds, in a fluid situation, perhaps without the benefit of aerospace knowledge.

PPRune isn't separate from "the media". It's part of it. So practice what you're preaching, if you wouldn't mind.

How much fuel would the aircraft be carrying typically at the end of a display ?