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-   -   F-117 secrecy. (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/453162-f-117-secrecy.html)

Willard Whyte 18th Mar 2014 21:05

http://www.aroundtherange.********.co.uk

Well, it's on the internet so it must be true.

For some reason blog spot (with no gap) won't post

500N 18th Mar 2014 21:20

That wasn't the only report from last year that they were flying although I can't seem to find a link to it.

It was interesting how they mothballed them as in very carefully which from what I read meant they could be taken out at reasonably short notice.

Willard Whyte 18th Mar 2014 21:49

I think mothballing is fairly standard procedure for any (vaguely) flyable, if unwanted, airframes.

The ?Boneyard? at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base | Deano In America

500N 18th Mar 2014 21:52

Yes, agree. But weren't the F-117's stored in a sealed warehouse as opposed to sent to the bone yard to go through one of the various stages there ?

Willard Whyte 18th Mar 2014 21:55

Didn't know that, but if so yes, 'tis a bit different.

It would certainly keep them in better condition than under the desert sun covered in spraylat.

Probably a function of keeping the 'stealth coating' both secret and protected to render them as useable as anything else in the Boneyard.

NutLoose 18th Mar 2014 22:46


Probably a function of keeping the 'stealth coating' both secret.
I think that little turkey was let out of the bag when one was shot down over Serbia, China and Russia no doubt pawed over parts of the remains post crash.

500N 18th Mar 2014 22:50

Willard

I found the link. Search F-117 storage Tonopath and you'll see the photos.
I notice they had the wings removed !

FoxtrotAlpha18 18th Mar 2014 23:50

I'm told there are still 3 or 4 flying out of Tonopah...saw one myself from the ground out near Cedar Ranch in late 2012.


The rest are stored in the 'canyon' hangars at Tonopah.

smujsmith 19th Mar 2014 00:19

I've just stumbled on this thread and believe I can dispel a few myths here. I was SNCO i/c Visiting Aircraft Support Section (VASS) 27 Apr 81 to 11 Nov 83. During that period the first year was spent with having the odd Sea King from HMS Gannet and the twice daily Loganair schedule.

AR1 #45. Nothing about blindfolds etc in the "VAS" crewroom old chap, it was usually so boring that the lads cooked burgers to order for the rest of the station, and delivered by the section Land Rover. For a seven man section, we had a very healthy tea bar fund.

Chopper 2004 #54. I believe the exercise you refer to was a major push by a US Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service (ARRS). HH53, MC130, CH47 and A10 were all involved. The A10 boys, 509 Tactical Fighter Squadron, were great fun and we enjoyed some beer calls with them. I still have the disarmed round from the gun, presented to me at the time with the squadron patch. The HH53 guys managed to lift most of the families on the station for a day on a beach on Islay, Jura, Gigha or Colonsay. As usual a hardworking, but rewarding exercise.

Throughout my time at Machrihanish I held the inventory for both the Gaydon Hangar and all the dispersal buildings. We saw plenty of RAFG Buccaneers visiting to collect Salmon for their dining in nights. Nimrods and P3s for Loadex. But no Aurora, no F117 and no B2 sadly.

Nutloose #61. I suspect your BSH built Sgt was a Master chief Petty Officer SEAL, known as Tony. He was an Explosives specialist. We had an old Victor fuselage (XH588 comes to mind) that needed moving about 40 feet back on to the newly built Fire section burning area. Having "connections" with crash and smash we borrowed some trac jacks etc to do the job. All the kit arrived and we only had one problem, the nose leg was down, and would be a problem with the move. I explained our problem, and asked Tony if he could "surgically" remove the nose leg. No probs he said. The "controlled" explosion was tannoyed on the Monday morning followed by a large bang. I was allowed to press the firing button and was amazed as the whole fuselage did a precision back flip and landed square in the middle of the burning area, my prowess with the trac Jack was never to be needed.

The only visitor of note during my time at Machrihanish was a certain Mr Paul McCartney. He owned, and still does I believe, a farmhouse behind Rhanachan Hill, to the north East of the station. During my time there we had the pleasure of meeting Him, his wife Linda, Yoko Ono and many other "pop stars". None resembled secret weapons or aircraft, I was never required to don "see nothing" eye patches and perhaps its remote location might easily allow such surmises to be made, but not during my time.

Sorry for the lengthy post, hopefully it helps with the posts I've mentioned. Machrihanish gave me something I will always be grateful for, an 11 Handicap from never having hit a golf ball in 6 months, but that's another story.

Smudge :ok:

Wensleydale 19th Mar 2014 08:51

Back in the days of the Balkan Bombing Campaigns in the 1990s (I forget which one, but probably Allied Force), the E-3D was controlling the ingress and egress of USAF aircraft on the northern routes with the E-3A controlling the rest from a Southern orbit. The USAF was concerned that the raids on the ATO were leaking to Belgrade and therefore their ATO arrived for us via one of the F-16 Squadrons at Aviano rather than by signal.


One such morning, we took over the orbit with an F-117 raid in progress. Unfortunately, the F-117s were in silent mode and did not check in - they only checked out with us once they left theatre. We were somewhat disconcerted when one of their aircraft listed on the "black" ATO failed to check with us. About 60 minutes of fraught radio transmissions and following CSAR checklists etc followed and only stopped when CAOC finally admitted that the missing aircraft was a no-show but they had declined to tell us for security reasons!


Thanks Guys!

Norma Stitz 21st Mar 2014 02:41

Re the 'still flying' F-117 discussion, they've been operating from Groom Lake, not Tonopah.

chopper2004 2nd Nov 2014 09:45

F-19 existed?
 
Lol Happy Halloween all as this has been floating or flying stealthily around the WWW

Cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps5aa8e3f7.jpg

Stuff 2nd Nov 2014 11:14

Isn't photoshop great?

Look here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Davis-Monthan+Air+Force+Base/@32.1503021,-110.8332897,782a,20y,90h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x86d6653db2375c9b:0xdf50c8f87748ce3 8


The 4 B-52s have the right markings to match but since that old image, one F-14 seems to have had it's wings swept and a lot of bits of the B-2 have been taken away.

Throw in a couple of indistinct shapes and you're done!

Edit: And here's the original donor image http://2.bp.********.com/_SF6F08-TM7...eyard+REAL.jpg

Buster Hyman 2nd Nov 2014 12:26

Love seeing the B-36 at the museum in that link Stuff. :ok:

Stuff 2nd Nov 2014 15:01

Oops! They all the the same to me when they are in bits...

Buster Hyman 2nd Nov 2014 20:28

They're fully assembled in the Museum. There's even a Hustler there too!

Janet Spongthrush 3rd Nov 2014 07:50

Fot completeness, the F-117A was snapped flying in Sept-14 at Tonopah Test Range, callsign Night 12.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/foru...html#msg233207

KenV 3rd Nov 2014 17:18


On the subject of Titanic, I believe Bob Ballards team used the dive as a fairly open excuse to do some actual work on some other more recent wrecks in the region - cant remember if they were US or Soviet though. The entire expedition was a convenient front!
Ballard was originally contracted by the US Navy to develop technology and techniques to dive on, take pictures of, and recover parts from the USS Scorpion and USS Thresher, both nuclear submarines which sank with all hands. (Neither submarine has been decommissioned and are officially considered to be on "eternal patrol".) Titanic was located roughly between the two. After that contract was completed, and IF there was time remaining, Ballard was permitted to use the Navy funded technology and equipment to find and dive on the Titanic. The Navy did not expect him to find the Titanic. When he did the Navy was worried about the publicity, but because of the world wide fascination with the Titanic, no one connected the dots. So no, the Titanic operation was not a front. It was a side-trip that Ballard was permitted to go on after executing a contract for the US Navy.

And incidentally, the US Navy constantly acoustically monitors and regularly visits and inspects both submarine sites. They are considered sovereign US territory and the Navy does not condone anyone but them visiting those sites.

Al R 3rd Nov 2014 21:07

Ken,

You're probably familiar with Blind Man's Bluff. I'm amazed it's classified as non fiction.

chopper2004 22nd Nov 2014 17:41

Apparently there is a logical and no so secret reason why they are still flying.....:mad:

The Aviationist » This is the reason why F-117 stealth jets are still flying. Maybe?

chevvron 25th Nov 2014 16:20

In the photos of Davis Monthan, there is mention of 'B2s'; I don't see any B2s but there are several B1s!(and lotsa B52s)

GreenKnight121 26th Nov 2014 04:21

Ummm... that is because there ARE no B-2s at DM.

There were exactly 21 B-2s built* - including the 6 test & development airframes which were converted to late-production standard at the end of the production run.

1 was destroyed in a crash (23 February 2008, B-2 Spirit of Kansas, 89-0127), 1 is at the 412th Test Wing at Edward Air Force Base, California, and the other 19 are all at the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri.


* Plus two test articles, built without engines or instruments for static testing.

chopper2004 7th Mar 2015 19:32

Bentwaters
 
Goatscukers visit to Bentwaters circa 1986. (Courtesy of Bentwaters Museum)

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...psszxkddvw.jpg

chopper2004 8th Dec 2015 11:32

Boom operator tales
 
Halfway down the page, he talks about fueling the 117 fleet and other unknown (stealth) platforms :mad: for which he cannot disclose.

He also mentions a severe interview without coffee :E could be warranted if when gassing up the likes of the F-117, a mistake happened and the airframe got scratched. Thus leading to the integrity of the airframe material being compromised.

Cheers

chopper2004 24th Feb 2016 18:23

Cloaking device
 
The F-117 Stealth Fighter Program Actually Had A 'Klingon Cloaking Device'



With technology that had never been seen before, the U.S. Air Force went to amazing lengths to keep the stealth F-117 Nighthawk program under tight wraps during the 1980s. As the program matured into an operational force, deploying F-117s in small numbers became a real possibility. But maintaining the aircraft’s veil of secrecy while doing so was uncharted territory. Enter the “Klingon Cloaking Device,” a ruse that would help prove such deployments could work.

No Fly Zone 29th Feb 2016 03:35

Early F-117 Secrecy?
 
A bit silly. During the development years it is reasonable to assume that the Soviets knew more about the underlying technology than a lot of the folks working on the program. The reason that they did not attempt a duplicate is because they could not afford it. Their science was absolutely excellent; just no Rubles.

A_Van 29th Feb 2016 06:32

No Fly Zone,


Absolutely right. An excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology


".....During the 1970s the U.S. Department of Defense launched project Lockheed Have Blue, with the aim of developing a stealth fighter. There was fierce bidding between Lockheed and Northrop to secure the multibillion-dollar contract. Lockheed incorporated into its bid a text written by the Soviet/Russian physicist Pyotr Ufimtsev from 1962, titled Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction, Soviet Radio, Moscow, 1962. In 1971 this book was translated into English with the same title by U.S. Air Force, Foreign Technology Division.[16] The theory played a critical role in the design of American stealth-aircraft F-117 and B-2.[17][18][19] Equations outlined in the paper quantified how a plane's shape would affect its detectability by radar, its radar cross-section (RCS).[20] This was applied by Lockheed in computer simulation to design a novel shape they called the "Hopeless Diamond", a wordplay on the Hope Diamond, securing contractual rights to produce the F-117 Nighthawk starting in 1975.....".
......


More on that person could be read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petr_Ufimtsev

Bevo 1st Mar 2016 01:05

It was not the lack of funds but a lack of understanding of the ability of turning the Ufimtsev’s work into a practical air vehicle. For example the USSR had the funds to develop the MiG-29 and the Su-27 both of which first flew in (1977) the same year as the Have Blue project and went operational one year before the F-117. In addition Ufmtsev’s work was specifically associated with antenna development and not radar signature reduction. So there is no indication that the Soviets were close to understanding low signature technology at the time of the F-117’s development. If there was any understanding that Ufmtsev's work had practical military applications his paper would have been highly classified.

"In Rich's own words, the unsung hero of Lockheed's effort was an anonymous staff mathematician and electrical engineer named Denys Overholser. Overholser and his mentor, another mathematician named Bill Schroeder, had discussed the possibilities of utilizing some of the equations associated with optical scattering (how electromagnetic waves bounce off variously shaped objects) on this project. Both had the rather odd hobby of reading obscure Russian mathematics papers and had made the ultimate "nerd's nerd" discovery. They had stumbled across a paper published in Moscow a decade earlier titled "Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction." It had been written by Pyotr Ufimtsev, the Soviet's chief scientist at the Moscow Institute of Radio Engineering and the last in a long line of scientists developing a long series of wave equations originally derived centuries ago by the Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell.

The U.S. intelligence community had helped translate this research and brought it to the West. The paper was in no way classified or related to weapons development at all. It was purely theoretical math. Years later, Ufimtsev immigrated to the United States to teach at the University of California, Los Angeles, and only then discovered his inadvertent contribution to the development of stealth aircraft.

The equations that Ufimtsev had developed made the reflections of radio waves off hard surfaces predictable. Not invisible, transparent, or tactical in any way-just predictable. The problem for Lockheed was that the calculations were so ferociously difficult that the most advanced supercomputers in the world at the time could only compute results for flat surfaces. Any attempt to perform the calculations for the curved surfaces you would find on a conventional aircraft-well, those machines would still be grinding away toward a solution today.

Schroeder recognized how these equations could be applied to Lockheed's current project. The solution was not even to attempt to design an aircraft with any curved surfaces, but to build one with dozens, or perhaps hundreds, of individual flat triangular and rectangular plates. Then the challenge was to compute the reflection from each and every flat surface before adding them all together to build a picture of the aircraft's total radar signature. Once you knew where every bit of radar reflection was coming from, you could then reorient those individual plates so that the reflection would go off in a direction away from the radar looking at it."

LINK

chopper2004 29th Mar 2018 21:50

F-19 Specter does exist......in a unit patch
 

Originally Posted by BEagle (Post 6485305)
Testors' model was of the fictional 'F-19':


Before the F-117 was unveiled, I made a number of 'zaps' based on a picture of the 'Lockheed F-19', allegedly of the '???th TFW, Tonopah AFB' which I used to leave lying around in the USA - or stuck firmly under the perspex in various Base Ops planning rooms...:E

I also left one inside the cockpit of a U-2 at Patrick AFB - they must have wondered about that!

Beags mate, came across this today:

This USAF Intelligence Squadron's Insignia Appears to Show the "F-19 Specter" - The Drive

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/796/3...5b994040_h.jpg

Maybe there was a classified program (one of many) run at some time possibly 80s in parallel with F-117 utilising the 19 Specter shape then so decades later, an reserve intel unit of not much publicity unit badge has a fictional a/c on it?

Any thoughts?

cheers

chopper2004 30th Jul 2018 01:29

No sign of retiring as yet
 

It looks like au contraire to the final final flight of the remaining F-117A s after Frits lot of retirement.

New Video Of F-117s Flying Out Of Tonopah Emerges Despite Their Fates Being Sealed - The Drive


Davef68 30th Jul 2018 12:15

They have been flying a couple in recent years to test new technology

ORAC 30th Jul 2018 12:26


Since its retirement from active flying status in 2008, the Air Force’s cadre of F-117 Nighthawks have been maintained at their original, climate-friendly hangars at the Tonopah Test Range Airport in Nevada. Given the cost of establishing secure storage facilities at Aircraft Maintenance and Regeneration Center (AMARC at Davis-Monthan AFB), the Air Force chose instead to store the retired F-117s at the pre-existing secure facilities at Tonopah Test Range.

Per Congressional direction within the FY07 National Defense Authorization Act the aircraft were placed in Type 1000, flyable storage for potential recall to future service. In order to confirm the effectiveness of the flyable storage program, some F-117 aircraft are occasionally flown."
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...ing-mothballed

MPN11 30th Jul 2018 18:17

Oh, are we allowed to talk about F-117 now? :)

SASless 30th Jul 2018 18:24

Is the F-117 as much a phantom as the new UK Fighter going to be?

chopper2004 27th Feb 2019 09:37


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10210047)

Even though they were retired then kept flying for T & E of new systems then retired again for the last time.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/2...-social-media/

k3k3 27th Feb 2019 13:12

As for retired aircraft still flying, I saw EF-111 aircraft flying from Mountain Home AFB in December 2001.

sandiego89 27th Feb 2019 18:01

A few years ago the explanation was a few were flown periodically to ensure functionality during long term storage (inviolet/ type 1000 storage?) A several hour flight at low level and using terrain masking in 2019 seems a bit more than an airframe function test. The 117 wasn't normally down low.

chopper2004 2nd Mar 2019 19:01

Back in the saddle over Syria and Iraq
 

Turns out they may have seen combat the other year....

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/four...magazine-says/


Cheers

BVRAAM 3rd Mar 2019 00:36


Originally Posted by chopper2004 (Post 10405119)

Turns out they may have seen combat the other year....

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/four...magazine-says/


Cheers

Yeah. I don't believe that one. Scramble Magazine is also known for its significant inaccuracies.

RAFEngO74to09 3rd Mar 2019 14:43

Coincidentally, this video appeared on You Tube on / around 1 Mar 19:
Panamint Valley - callsign LEHI 1 on 27 Feb 19 - in 1080p HD


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