Typhoon v Merlin?
 

This morning I had a grandstand view of a Typhoon and a Merlin? (never was much good at large helo identification) carrying out a low level exercise over my strip here on the South Lincs fens.

The helo was jinking around the sky (never above a 100ft) trying to avoid the Typhoon.

Boy, was it a sight for my old eyes to see so much activity in the skies over the Fens since the Harriers were withdrawn.

Very rarely do I see a Typhoon at low levels (except when practising formation flying for a fly-past) and to have one pulling some seriously tight manouveres at low level with the burners going was awesome to this old PPL.

Just one question, am I right in assuming this exercise is intended to get the Typhoon ready for low level attack deployment (i.e.) replacing the Harrier's low level role. If that's the plan then get the Harrier back now as the helo pilot was running rings around the Typhoon, if gaining target aquisition was the name of the game.

Apologies in advance for posting on here but as I said, an awesome sight and just wanted to share the experience.

Rogcal, a meatbox nav told me it was something like hare and hounds or some such. Mixing with a helo is a waste of avtur.

Better haul off and wax him with a PW IV.

Why? It's a forum, posting is what it's for.

A little digging and I found this and as running till July, more to come, I hope!

EXERCISE PASHTUN PANTHER - 2 MAY - 8 JUL 11
Exercise PASHTUN PANTHER consists of 10 x 5 day exercises from 2nd May - 8 July 11. There will be Rotary Wing and various Fast Jet aircraft operating in LFA 5 for the duration of the Exercise.

Rogcal,

don't be fooled by what you saw, I have fought a Typhoon in a Merlin and it was a turkey shoot - they don't really need to mix it low level with the helos to dispatch them.

GB2

Turning about with a helo was always just a bit of fun to try and get a guns solution. The battle had been over with a Fox 3 and Fox 2 on the way to the merge. Of course you could always go supersonic over the top that would wipe out the helo - in the same way a low level Tornado did to a Winnebago back in the early 90s on a Red Flag. Surprised the Winnebago driver didn't have the supersonic area marked on his road map!!! Luckily, the driver got away with bumps and bruises (and a new campervan).

Here is an honest question.
Having done plenty of fighter affil etc, I have always heard people say "we would have you with a missile/supersonic pass/bomb" etc
Has anybody ever actually done it? I mean with real weapons against either an enemy or a drone helicopter that was controlled properly at 5ft in amongst the ground/terrain?
I've never been convinced it would be so simple, but I'd love to be educated. I know a Pucara had a good long go in the Falklands unsuccessfully.

Tourist,

Whilst I don't know the answer to your question, surely schwacking someone with a PW while they're in the 5 ft hover is no more difficult than hitting a tank/truck/generic ground vehicle?

Assuming of course your hover is more stable than a stude on hovering 1!

Didn't an F-15E splash an Iraqi heli with an LGB during Desert Storm ? I remember the Hog guys got two gun kills against helis and I think there were a couple more, but I don't know if any of the helis had seen the threat and were manoeuvring against them.

I also seem to recall that a Pucara downed the Scout that was on its way to pick up H Jones at Goose Green; heard about that a very long time ago, though, so happy to stand corrected.

pba

Yes, obviously a hover would be easy, but lets be honest the helicopter will probably be doing something like 100kts at 5 ft if it is aware. I also wonder how close a bomb would have to be to have a realistic probability of a kill. The bomber also has to find the moving target from above. Not that easy, if the amount of times you have to talk the fast jet onto you in fighter affiliation is anything to go by.

camacho

I thought the scout found an oportunity to land and the crew left it rotors running? Maybe another one.
I can understand an A-10 or Pucara or frogfoot getting a helicopter, they are designed for the slow fight, and LGB hit was a shut down helicopter if it is the one I am thinking of, so hardly fair.

What about Vietnam? Any migs go for Hueys or Cobras?

Even if a DH is not achieved the debris hemisphere from an LGB or the like is going to make it a very nasty place for a rotary aircraft to fly :ok:

Oh I don't doubt it, but can you put one within 100m of a speeding helicopter?:confused:
Or is the hemisphere bigger than that?

Incidentally, this isn't banter, I would seriously be intrigued to find out just how easy/tricky it would actually be in a realistic scenario, ie in european terrain, trees and terrain relief, not on a billiard table.

US planes shot down 2 US Blackhawks over Northern Iraq.

Not sure what they used.

We have a Ppruner who's expert in the art of bringing down helicopters , do we not? (Dave Morgan bagged at least one which was in flight in '82, IIRC)

Sat in a hot debrief with a Tornado crew many years ago when I was a Puma Crewman and they said that they would not normally waste munitions on a Rotary target but on an opportunity basis on the way home they would certainly send something down if it was still on a pylon.

Can't remember the specifics from my HTI days but some of those bombs put up a very large amount of crap and corruption which travelling in all directions way way quicker that the heli it was aimed at and is one of the tactics the Tornado guys talked about using :ok:

Having done a lot of affil in the Falklands, helos are a difficult target. The slow speed makes it difficult for a PD equipped fighter to lock to the target. A stationary helo is the same as a car so radar designers spend much effort designing that particular problem out of a radar. Slow speed targets are tricky for any weapon which uses speed as a discriminator.

The easiest way to engage may in fact be a strafe pass.

Suffice to sat that helo pilots need to know how to evade a fighter. Fighter pilots need to know how best to engage a helo. With modern ops, that's good training.

to put the boot on the other foot...

from IRIAF kills in the Iran-Iraq War (As of 22 September 1980) - Iran Defense Forum

Iraqi fighters downed by Iranian helicopters (AH-1J)
1 MiG-21
total: 1

Iraqi Helicopters downed by Iranian helicopters (AH-1J)
1 SA.316
9 SA.342
6 Mi-25
total: 16

I've read elsewhere that they were all Sidewinder kills

Tourist, the Americans did lose an H-53 to a Vietnamese MiG during an extraction; a missile shot, if I remember correctly, but I've no idea if the H-53 crew were aware of the threat or at what stage of the operation it caught them. I'd hope that we have a couple of Americans around who might be able to shed light on this one, and any other events like it.

jd

I'd love to know if those helicopters were unsuspecting or alert, and I guess they had no DAS. Also. what terrain?

SFFP

That's the thing though.

"is one of the tactics the Tornado guys talked about using"

They think it might work, but who has tried it?