Floods & MRH90
 

Just interested to know if any MRH90 helicopters were used in Queensland flood relief efforts ?
If not, any reason as to why not.
(Or are these H/C still suffering from rear ramp limitations, sling operation limitations, easily damaged floors etc ?)

No. Dont know why.

Maybe a more pertinent question is why didn't Oakey mobilise over the Christmas period to assist?

The people who are running the air assets here leave a lot to be desired.

I suggested that they get some Army Avn east of the ranges to say Amberley/Brisbane and was told that there is a plan. Wx went bad and assets were stuck at Oakey. N winches on Black Hawks either.

At one base in Lockyer choppers were grounded for "crew duty" limitations - For Christ's sake people were dying....

None thought to preposition fuel early on. Choppers resorted in some cases to diesel [good idea[.

The flood situation really started in late December...

Oakey helos are training assets on a training base, hence no winches and no crews on duty during Xmas stand down period.

MRHs didn't assist as they are still working up and are not yet in service.

I believe there were a number of Black Hawks detached to Amberley, although Amberley was also flooded. Fixed-wing aircraft from the base were repositioned and power was still out to some parts of the base yesterday. I was in a suburb completely cut-off due to flooding and all the helicopter crews did an absolutley fantastic job. I am sure there must have been substantial logistics challenges but there was barely a minute went by for most of last week when there wasn't a helo of some sort passing overhead.

I'm sure Bligh's inquiry will uncover as yet unknown details but I am certain the ADF will be found to have provided outstanding support. There are also plenty of chaps still on the ground covered in nasty smelling muck - all busily cleaning-up for the community.

:ok: Good work fellas :ok:

18 is on the money.

B SQN ID'd DACC crews prior to leave and were on 48 hrs NTM. However SAA hit the ground running when enacted.

MRH is still being accepted into serice and there were limited crews available anyway.

Rumour is MRH-90's are restricted to flying airfield to airfield due to engine FOD issues.

no reflection on individuals was mean't but rather that our whole system isn't great.

billions spent and not much to show for it. No real sense of urgency in getting things into service. What about the contingency aspect of having a winch or two at Oakey. The Xmas stand-down nonsense is a joke. Look at the history of civil emergencies over the past 60 years and you'll see that. Nothing will change with mother nature...

The chopper crews did a great job once things got going.

Don't aircrewmen get winch training at Oakey in 412s?

Criticism is easy to do and a bit of a right after the fact. More pertinent is to also offer solutions. Given the boys and girls of the ADF work pretty hard particularly when deployed overseas and in particular over Christmas, away from families when would a suitable stand down period be? Given they are often away on exercises or tsunami, earth quake, flood etc relief and away from family when would a pertinent time for stand down be? Given that the ADF is not a humanitarian organisation which assets would you keep working over the summer period when would a suitable stand down time be? Given that the stand down period is often only two weeks when, well you get the gist.
The personal of the ADF are not different to anyone else in the community. Every member is more than willing to dig in and help out particularly in times of crisis, have a look at recent history. But the difference from our local population is that every member must wait and be told when and where to go and what to do.
Like everything that is Government based, infrastructure cost money. We all complain about our taxes but all want that hospital, ambulance, policeman when the need arises. I don’t want to see a cop when I’m 10klm over the limit but where are the buggers when some ones on a rampage. If you want better humanitarian capabilities pay for it.
Possibly crewman do get winch training. So ??? Where are the winches?
Billions spent, on what. Do you expect the Super hornets to do pass’s dropping loaves of bread? Where are the assets? Well either deployed, under maintenance etc.
More than happy to expand the ADF and include some more assets to be utilised for emergency civilian situations. Has already been thought of 20 odd years ago with an idea of using a fixed wing amphibian to be ADF utilised (very happy SAS here for amphib ops) and then on standby for water dropping during summer seasons. Why didn’t it happen, ask the pollies.

Where is this thread headed. Are we unhappy with the ADF, the people in the ADF, the fact that the ADF is not on permanent work up.

Despite what has been posted on this thread the BlackHawks at Oakey ARE winch equipped.

The ADF is not established to provide assistance in natural disasters. There's no spare cash to be ready just in case.

Not allowed to have spare capability these days... it's a waste of money :ugh:

Interesting to read all the comments posted. Personally I think that ADF personnel have done an excellent job and are to be congratulated in there efforts. :ok:

We have had 1st deliveries of these A/C about 2007/2008 - seems to be taking a long time to get these into service considering other countries are using them already.
Did the other countries also have issues with the floor / ramp / sling etc as well?

I guess the greatest concern is the engine problem a short time back and a chance of it reoccurring.

Eventually when the Sea Kings and Blackhawks are replaced by 46 MRH90 and if there should be another engine problem then potentially we could see a situation where we have NO helicopters available (of this size) till the engine situation was resolved.
Last time the aircraft did not fly for a number of months.
.

Reports on Sydney radio today that interstate Army Reserve personnel are not being authorised to work on flood relief / clean up because there is no money available for Reserve pay. (the same reports say that local Reservists are expected to work for no pay.)

I can more or less confiirm this as I know a Reservist who has been working full time at Russell Hill on a project that needs doing - and he is desperately needed to complete the job - but he has been (for want of a better phrase) 'stood down' ('let go' if you prefer), since the budget for Reserve pay has been exceeded some months ago by a very large margin.

Wiley, spot on. Even some local reservists can't be deployed because there is no money. Funny thing is they would go out as volunteers.
This from the same government that also cut a capability they shouldn't have until the MRH was up and running.
Having said that if there was a delay getting the ADF involved it wasn't because the troops at the coal face were slow. As mentioned if Govt says go, Defence would be there.
From what I have seen the efforts of Army Aviation (Blackhawk, Chinook and Kiowa)and Navy have been outstanding. They probably need to be kept on a leash from being too keen. Lots of good work from all the rescue helicopters involved.

Not critical of what those who did fly did. Surely Oakey has a call out mechanism? It will from now onwards, that's a fact! Seems crazy to have hangars full of aircraft whilst people were needing water in Condamine or dying on roofs in Grantham. Regardless of it being a training base, the aircraft could have been generated and on an appropriate NTM to assist....name me one of the personnel there, military, reservist, contractor or APS that wouldn't have wanted to help!

As for not have winches....so what....when people are dying, a marlow rope with a figure 8 and a a harness attached to the cargo hook is surely an acceptable solution which can be appropriately risk managed......or would we rather watch people die with a dozen Kiowas, half a dozen Blackhawks and a 412 tucked up in bed.....

FINESTKIND

Ever heard of aid to the civil power? It is an ADF role.

Let's not forget that the ADF is fully funded by the citizens of Australia not the "government"!

When our fellow citizens are in trouble we must ALL be there.

Agree that the accountants view of defence whereby we'll have one multi-role type to do everything in a general area is flawed. There have been and continue to be issues with machines that will affect a whole fleet - then what?

Having a minimum of two types [including engines] etc reduces risk. Even South Korea recognises that by buying F-15's in batches with different engine types.

Those in Australia who misguidedly believe that provision of aid to the civil power is not an overriding consideration in defence capabilities employment should have a careful read of Defence White Paper 2009.

Backtracking to the emergence of the RAAF helo force around 1963. Iroquois were all fitted with rescue hoists and often deployed in flood relief events thereafter, including the 1974 happening throughout Queensland and New South Wales involving Iroquois based at Amberley and Canberra (Fairbairn), plus of course deployment to many other parts of Australia and regional nations for aid to the civil power. One 9SQN aircraft was lost in the 1974 floods as a consequence of short shaft failure with 2 aircrew killed and other casualties. The ability to swiftly deploy Iroquois by C-130 for such needs has been forsaken by procuring helicopters that are somewhat unsuited for speedy tactical air deployment. Forget landing C-17 into scruffy remote airstrips because other operators including the USAF and RAF will not entertain.

The Kiowa is a very cost-effective aircraft in multiple roles and similarly the Iroquois (Huey II) which outperforms most other military helos in utility battlefield support roles in terms of versatility, cost-effectiveness and hot and high performance. The larger Sea King is very versatile for naval support needs, including ASW; so, who originated replacement of these types by super-expensive substitutes that cannot perform the same roles cost-effectively?

Operating costs are Kiowa $2,865, Iroquois Huey II about $5,000, Blackhawk $20,659, Sea Hawk $45,317, Sea King $23,616 (DoD 2007 data). Arguably, some of these costings seem excessive but how much per flying hour for MRH-90?

The Chinook, Blackhawk, Iroquois, Kiowa collectively continue to adequately perform combat roles worldwide with established manufacturer upgrade programs available; similarly for other naval support helos. The unit cost of such upgrades are low compared with becoming locked into acquisition of absurdly expensive relatively unproven replacement types that arguably will not be able to cost-effectively perform basic helo support functions. The whole ADF helo rationalization program requires an urgent rethink.

TBM

Ok, so as a serving member who wants to help I just jump in my multi million dollar helo and leap off to the rescue. Get a grip, we are responsible to the taxpayer for the cost of all this equipment and the best use of it. Of course we all want to help, but it's the GOVERNMENT that decides where to put us!

Rant over!