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From A_Van
Sorry for maybe disappointing you, but nobody here is scared of (or even concerned with) this ugly and overpriced plane. An easy target for modern (to say nothing of the future) anti-aircraft systems. The Sultan |
Dear God, I'm agreeing with Sultan.
Van, have you any empirical evidence if your claim based on experience with 4th gen or later equipment? Your client states certainly aren't representing the capabilities all that well. |
Donald Trump debated defense policy in a tweet today, saying:
“Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet” This tweet from Trump could just be a negotiating ploy on Trump's part to lower the price of the plane, as he did for the successor to Air Force One. But whether he negotiates a lower price or cancels the project entirely, many say he's on the right track. Bob C |
AFAIK peeps **** on the tweety (not debate - call on master bates may be) but anyway twittering posted here already & comments: http://www.pprune.org/9618081-post10009.html
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If there's any single person with balls, big enough, to cancel this preposterous turkey of an aircraft, it's our Donald.
I wonder what a graph with 'in too deep to cancel now' on one axis and 'consequences of proceeding with unsatisfactory aircraft' on the other, would look like? Someone had the balls to pull the plug on the A-12. Can't have been an easy decision.... |
ORAC.... longer_ron, Ref Lift Fan Inlet Door redesign, they went through between 2007-2010. |
Well the finest brains and engineers in the aerospace world came up with and started building Orion.....
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So, let's see if Donald actually pulls the plug. I'm betting he doesn't, because it isn't a Turkey. But he doesn't know that yet, hence the tweets.
Let him get his capability read-in, and perhaps go and talk to the F-35 guys who are training against F-18,15,16s daily and see what the outcomes have been. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the F35B will have superlative radar and sensor fusion, stealth, F16 class manouevrability, F18 class range, state of the art BVR missiles, state of the art short range missiles, and will do all that while filling the slightly awkward niche we've created for ourselves by doing it all while being STOVL. If that's the definition of a turkey put me down for 138.
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F-35's radar is mind blowing, with 'yuge' growth already planned. Sensors, likewise. Fusion IS working very well but still being improved (and will continue to develop through-life); missiles are.....well, very nice indeed. Holds its own against F-16 very well -but remember it isn't a lightweight-class fighter. Considering the design challenges, the STOVL variant is a credit to ingenuity - there isn't another fighter in the world able to fly at Max AUW from a 1500ft strip - or 600ft ramped deck - dash to M1.6 return and land at zero forward airspeed. Oh, and you won't get a radar lock on the old girl either.
Yeah, I'd buy 138 for the UK as well. The high cost is also the price of being relevant in the air for the next 40 years. Obsolescence will see F-15, 16, 18 in the boneyard soon enough. |
The UK Sun (courtesy R Murdoch) has this
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/247073...-stealth-jets/ And no, I don't read it either, but the MoD does, and sent that out in its daily upsum. airsound PS Further to earlier mentions of the 'bin lid' - does anyone actually know if there is any procedure for dealing with a stuck-shut bin lid? (posts #10018 et seq) PPS Fascinating stuff, ORAC, about the history of the whole intake system of the lift fan - but no mention of door (bin lid) malfunctions. |
Somewhere there is a Whizzer Wilson story (maybe some other test pilot) talking about doing various F=35B MODE testings in flight & of course they do lots of this emergency testing in the simulator. Youse'll have to wait though as it is 0200 here and I have had it for now.
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Sleep well Spaz - Merry Christmas
airsound |
Airsound,
Perhaps I can help. If the lift fan door jams shut, then the only option is a normal landing to a runway. At sea, with a STOVL ship, it's going to be divert ashore or take the ejection seat. This would apply to other doors in the STOVL lift system as well. Of course, it's always a risk when you design bits of aircraft that need to be covered up by panels that can stick shut. Like landing gear, cockpits, bomb bays.....look, this isn't an all new issue. Designers and engineers work damn hard to make these mechanisms as reliable as possible, and then some. And ensuring that they don't rip off in flight. They spend hours (and dollars) doing all that in the background so that they are (as far as practicable) not a problem in service. Yes, the F-35B lift fan door was a very big challenge. What I can say with some certainty is that the solution was in large part due to the efforts of a number of very talented Brits working with LM. As was the whole world-beating lift system. Best regards as ever to all those really clever people, Engines |
Surely it would be much cheaper and safer to be able to eject a stuck bin lid than a pilot? Surely that cant be beyond the wit of man?
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Thanks, as ever, Engines. PM follows
airsound |
For 'airsound' one or two of these snippets have been posted - probably - on this thread already, albeit some years ago now and they do not specifically address the bin lid question, they demonstrate testing and fixes for these doors plus the STOVL MODES, sadly not described here.
F-35 Begins Year With Test Objectives Unmet [STOVL IAS Change] 04 Jan 2011 Graham Warwick http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...p22-279507.xml “...unreliable upper lift-fan door actuator redesigned, and no problems were experienced in the last quarter, he says. Vertical landings, halted since September after the discovery of wear on auxiliary inlet-door hinges, are set to resume this month. McFarlan says some hinge components have been redesigned & operation of the lift-fan door rescheduled to reduce airloads on the auxiliary doors during semi-jet-borne flight. The lift-fan door was programmed to open to 65 deg. below 120 kt., and to 35 deg. above that airspeed. But with the large door fully open, loads on the auxiliary-inlet doors behind it are reduced, so the schedule has been changed to keep the lift-fan door open 65 deg. up to 165 kt. during a short takeoff, he says...." F-35B - Doors (Pt. 2) Graham Warwick 09 Dec 2011 http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...entId=blogDest “Dorsal auxiliary air-inlet doors, which open in STOVL mode to increase mass flow into the engine & generate an additional 7,000lb of vertical thrust, were found to flutter in semi-jetborne flight, causing premature hinge wear. The initial fix was to modify operation of the large lift-fan door forward of the auxiliary inlet to stay fully open to higher airspeed on short take-offs to ‘shelter’ the clamshell doors. Instead of closing to the 35° mid position at 125kt the aft-hinged lift-fan door now stays fully open at 65° to 170kt on take-off, & begins to open to 65° at 160kt on approach to landing.” F-35 Flight Testing At Pax [excerpt] Eric Hehs 15 Oct 2012 F-35 Lightning II Flight Testing At NAS Patuxent River | Code One Magazine "...The test team at Pax is also exploring the maximum speed end of the STOVL portion of the flight envelope, which is 250 knots. “The buffet and noise is significant when we have the upper lift fan door all the way open, which is an angle of sixty-five degrees, at that speed,” Faidley said.... ...The team is also flying the B‑model in conventional mode but configured with various STOVL doors open. “The flight conditions mimic failure modes,” Faidley explained. “For example, we intentionally open the upper lift fan door after the engine nozzle has converted from STOVL to conventional flight mode.” Some of the flight test aircraft have special software that allows the pilot to override the standard control laws that actuate the various doors and nozzle angles. The flight control laws for the STOVL variant have six modes that are associated with specific actuations. Mode 1 defines conventional flight. Mode 4 defines STOVL. The other four modes define transitional states between the two primary modes. “If a pilot loses a hydraulic system in Mode 2, we know that the doors associated with STOVL flight will be positioned a certain way,” Faidley explained. “We are seeing how well the airplane flies in those conditions.”...” |
Some seem to agree with Trump - and his methods.......
Next Big Future: Exactly how Trump can end the F35 and save $15 billion or more per year for 30-50 years while improving US military capability The second linked paragraph is interesting in its own right...... Next Big Future: Trump asks Boeing to price out Advanced Super Hornet F-18 with conformal fuel tanks to put negotiation pressure on Lockheed and the F-35 |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 9620184)
Some seem to agree with Trump - and his methods.......
Next Big Future: Exactly how Trump can end the F35 and save $15 billion or more per year for 30-50 years while improving US military capability The second linked paragraph is interesting in its own right...... Next Big Future: Trump asks Boeing to price out Advanced Super Hornet F-18 with conformal fuel tanks to put negotiation pressure on Lockheed and the F-35 Insane prices for nothing better [and in many ways less] than a GR9. |
A GR9 is supersonic?
Say the F-35 is cancelled, you going to be happy to wait another 20 years and pay $400billion (today money) more for a replacement of the F-18/16? |
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