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Hempy, the F-22 production run being cut short is a pet peeve of mine. (I'll not digress). From our PoV in the states, our future carrier based aircraft had to be a joint deal (like the old F-111 deal in the 1960's) so that F-35C (CV, replace Hornet) had to be linked to USAF low mix fighter/attack (F-35A, replace Viper) by Congressional mandate.
And so it has, for better and for worse. I see no reason not to make the most of it, even though it is so darned expensive. (I do not blame any of the partner nations for their dismay/frustration at the cost and delay. The complaints are well deserved). |
Politics stinks /endex
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The only benefit the F-35 has is it's stealth capability, which enhances the range of targeting information to be sent back to other weapon carriers? Assuming radar improves over time and reduces stealth effectiveness, standoff jammers can degrade radar performance to restore stealth effectiveness. At least that's USN's approach to long term viability (hence the Growler). We'll have to wait and see if things work out that way or not. |
Ok, let me rephrase the question.
IF someone was to retrofit MADL and its sensors to say a Super Bug, what advantage other than stealth would an F-35 have over that aircraft? B model VTOL notwithstanding. What if it was fitted on an F-22? |
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Hempy: IF someone was to retrofit MADL and its sensors to say a Super Bug, what advantage other than stealth would an F-35 have over that aircraft? B model VTOL notwithstanding. What if it was fitted on an F-22? A rather rhetorical question to eliminate stealth and STOVL for the B advantages for the F-35, and I think you know the answers performance wise- we know there are areas where performance is less, equal or greater than legacy aircraft- not a game changer here as addressed numerous times on this thread, but a few thoughts: Advantages: - New build airframe. Less hours than a rebuilt F/A-18 E/F. Super Hornet hours are getting eaten up quickly. - Longer range. The C has loads of fuel. - Reduced maintenance (intended, not there yet) - More accurate gun (intended, not there yet) - Reduced training hours. - A design specifically intended for the sensor and airframe interface. Integrating a very complex sensor and computing suite to a legacy airframe is never a simple bolt on process. There are placement, power, interference, cabling and numerous issues to address. Not without risk, and very expensive if even possible. |
The VTOL advantage is spurious at best.
That solution is to buy more advanced Super Hornets and its electronic attack variant in the form of the EA-18G Growler while investing in a stealthy new unmanned strike aircraft and a future F/A-XX. To pay for those programs, the Navy could cancel its portion of the F-35 buy and reinvest the money. The Navy would have to accept some risks, but the long-term payoff could save the carrier from obsolescence in the era of precision-guided warfare. |
KenV writes:
2. Can the remote sensor platform transmit the above target data at sufficient bandwidth to ensure near real time target tracking? Link 16 lacks the bandwidth. 3. Can the Aegis/SM6 installation receive and process the data in near real enough time to enable a missile launch and then guide that missile to enable the missile to intercept the target? I suspect that a fourth consideration would be can the remote sensor platform transmit the targeting data securely and with low probability of signal intercept? |
Some solutions to get some connectivity between the data link systems.
As stealth aircraft, F-22s are not equipped with conventional datalinks such as Link-16 which can be easily spotted by enemy SIGINT. Instead, they use a unique stealth-qualified, narrow-beam Intra-Flight Data-Link (IFDL) designed to relay data and synchronize a situational picture only among the Raptors. As this stealth datalink is incompatible with all other communications devices, Raptors cannot communicate with other friendly aircraft. However, because of a dramatic cutback in the number of Raptors purchased—187 bought for operations, compared to the 648 planned in 1996 to be procured—the aircraft must now communicate with F-35s as well as legacy “fourth-generation” fighters such as the F-15, F-16 and F-18 families. To address the jets' inabilities to link to one another—or to legacy fighters—in air campaigns, their manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has demonstrated a new data-linking capability it developed for them secretly through “Project Missouri,'” a proprietary program. During the demonstration, Lockheed validated the use of a Link 16 transmit capability from the twin-engine F-22 Raptor and showcased an exotic waveform developed by L-3 Communications and optimized for low-probability of intercept/low-probability of detection transmissions (LPI/LPD), says Ron Bessire, vice president of technology and innovation at the company's Skunk Works. The demonstration required 8 hr. of flight time and took place Dec. 17 and 19, 2013, Bessire tells Aviation Week. The trials required use of a U.S. Air Force Raptor and the F-35 Cooperative Avionics Testbed (CATbird), a Boeing 737-based flying laboratory that was used as a Joint Strike Fighter surrogate to test F-35 software. The F-22 also was able to transmit to a Link 16 terminal on the ground. |
IF someone was to retrofit MADL and its sensors to say a Super Bug, what advantage other than stealth would an F-35 have over that aircraft? And BTW, not even Boeing is proposing such a thing for their F-15. The latest Boeing proposal for the F-15 is NOT to fit F-35 systems on it, but to fit a compatible datalink onto it and enable it to carry even larger numbers of stand off weapons than the E version now carries. Basically, they are proposing to make the F-15 the arsenal plane USAF has been talking about for a while now to accompany the F-35 and give it more firepower. Boeing Sees Upgunned F-15 As Potential ?Arsenal Plane? | AWIN_Defense content from Aviation Week |
Why would you want to fit F-35 sensors? Frankly they are 30 year old and obsolete, the EO for example. Any upgrade to the F-35 will take years and $Bs, but any new retrofit to another platform would take advantage of the progress since the F-35 sensors were designed.
It would be like deciding to upgrade the radio in an 80s Merc and trying to retrofit an 90s FM set and CD player rather than a DAB/Sirius with an integrated Bluetooth phone system. |
Following the recent leaked memo on the current status of the F-35 programme, written by DOT&E chief, Michael Gilmore, Morten Hanche, an F-35 pilot has written this reply...
https://theaviationist.com/2016/09/2...-doesnt-agree/ -RP |
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II
I heard on Forces News yesterday that we remain committed to buying 138 Bs. If so, we've got to be mad. I hope, as has been suggested at RIAT earlier this year, that the balance of 90 aircraft beyond the initial confirmed order for 48, will be As. FB:) |
Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
(Post 9514868)
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II
I heard on Forces News yesterday that we remain committed to buying 138 Bs. If so, we've got to be mad. I hope, as has been suggested at RIAT earlier this year, that the balance of 90 aircraft beyond the initial confirmed order for 48, will be As. FB:) |
Originally Posted by KenV
(Post 9514279)
No much. But that's like saying if someone were to retrofit F-4 systems and missiles on a Lightning, what advantage does a Phantom have over a Lightning. First its not at all certain if F-35 systems can be successfully retrofitted to other aircraft and what is certain is that cost would be very high, maybe higher than just buying brand new F-35s in the first place.
And BTW, not even Boeing is proposing such a thing for their F-15. The latest Boeing proposal for the F-15 is NOT to fit F-35 systems on it, but to fit a compatible datalink onto it and enable it to carry even larger numbers of stand off weapons than the E version now carries. Basically, they are proposing to make the F-15 the arsenal plane USAF has been talking about for a while now to accompany the F-35 and give it more firepower. Boeing Sees Upgunned F-15 As Potential ?Arsenal Plane? | AWIN_Defense content from Aviation Week |
Originally Posted by Rhino power
(Post 9514780)
Following the recent leaked memo on the current status of the F-35 programme, written by DOT&E chief, Michael Gilmore, Morten Hanche, an F-35 pilot has written this reply...
https://theaviationist.com/2016/09/2...-doesnt-agree/ -RP The Aviationist 20 Sep 2016: DOT&E leaked memo suggests F-35 May Never Be Ready for Combat. F-35 pilot doesn’t agree.
Originally Posted by Morten Hanche
...I fully expect the F-35’s most hardened critics to discount this article, regardless of what I write. However, some may choose to believe my story, based on the fact that I know the airplane and its capabilities as a pilot. I don’t make my claims based on bits and pieces of information, derived from potentially unreliable sources. They are based on experience actually flying and training with the jet for nearly a year... Personally, I am impressed by the the F-35. I was relieved to experience just how well the F-35 performs with regard to speed, ceiling, range and maneuverability...
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Two messages
It would be quite nice to know what is real as regards the F35.
DOT&E chief, Michael Gilmore says that the aircraft is not on a good pathway to achieve what it was meant to, the software is late etc etc, other papers say that an F35 with Software version 2B or 3I needs many other assets to enable it to do its job. Whilst Major Morten “Dolby” Hanche seems to say that the 3I plane that he is using with the USAF is the best thing since sliced bread. Obviously if the 3I F35 is so good, once the flight restrictions are taken off the plane with a full 3F software load and all the developmental steps needed for full release to the USAF and international customers having been achieved, it would seem that a new (5th?) generation of superlatives will be needed... I am assuming that the truth is somewhere between "It is in a death spiral" and "It is the best thing since sliced bread" it would just be nice to know where on the continuum it is. |
Interesting Ken, I didn't know Boeing built F35 sensors... |
I am assuming that the truth is somewhere between "It is in a death spiral" and "It is the best thing since sliced bread" it would just be nice to know where on the continuum it is. |
KenV you might well be right however when there is great excitement that a development airframe, with a test pilot on board and not G limited I would have thought, is said to be outclassed by a two seat F16 as I recall, I find comments about the agility and the like of a G limited F35 being superior to an F16 difficult to take at face value.
If an F22 pilot had taken a ride in a G limited F35 and said that it was "the best thing since sliced bread" I think many people would have been rather surprised, to say the least, possibly it is, I doubt that an F22 pilot would think so though. Obviously the F35 needs to perform at or near to the specifications that it was designed, or has since been designed to, or there will be holes in many airforces and Royal Navy Carriers with no planes available. My point was that both reports cannot be correct, it would just be reassuring to know where the project really was... |
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