It'll be interesting to see whether the F35 can stir up that much fog.

If its reported time to accelerate through mach 1 is correct, then the mist display would at least be visible for a long time.

I've only ever seen F22s in the desert, where there's no special effects from mist - apart from the visually very impressive performance (and heat haze from those many many tens of thousands of pounds of thrust).

Melmoth -

I was there too and don't have my notes in front of me. But if I recall correctly, the comments were more to the effect that the F-35 would be the RAF's high-end capability - due to stealth and avionics - with the Typhoon in a supporting role.

However... The force-structure question is how much land-based, expeditionary capability is left over from 48 jets supporting the carrier air wing. The CVF idea, after all, was always based on the idea of delivering sustained attack sorties while providing air defense beyond SAM range, which requires a certain number of aircraft on the ship - the number I heard in 2002 was 24-30.

Anything close to that will monopolize 48 aircraft, regardless of the squadron number. Moreover, it's hard to see those 48 aircraft sustaining even a 12-jet air wing and an expeditionary deployment at the same time.

Hi LO,

I wonder how many other PPruNers were there! I've just rechecked my notes, and the RAF speaker said that the F-35 will represent the UK's 'top-end air-to-air capability' with Typhoons in a supporting role, so no ambiguity there (unless he 'mispoke', of course).

Again though, you're coming back with this 48 number for the future F-35B fleet. This is not the final number - this is the initial committment (the first 14 of which will be financially approved later this week in all likelihood). The final number will be announced in the SDSR in 2015.

There have been several F-16 successful USAF deadstick landings, and a number of losses due to engine failures - but these almost always have occurred over land. There have also been plenty of precautionary engine shutdowns of F-18s, a number over water - luckily, the other engine almost always was working. All in all, it's nice to have options, particularly when your jet costs $150M.

Can't argue with that Maus, but as ever it comes down to a trade-off between having 'options' and the savings to be made through reduced operating and life-cycle costs I suppose. Let's not forget also that the Sea Harrier/Harrier operated over water with a single-engine perfectly fine.

edited to add: Admittedly, the Harrier was never USD150 million a pop....

Seems to be quite a few if you include all Mks; even more if you presume the bird strike losses were due to subsequent engine problems.

Wonder how many of those (admittedly many) losses were down to it being a single-engine type, and how many were down to it simply being a difficult plane to master.

Yes, but in the case of F-35 vs. F-18A-F (and other singles like F-16 / Gripen, the F-35) LCC is predicted to be higher by a significant amount.

Italian Lawmakers Consider New Cuts to JSF Purchase

ROME — Eight months after the Italian parliament suspended new orders of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), members of the country’s biggest political party may try to halve the total purchase.

A source within the center-left Democratic Party said the members were preparing a policy document for approval in parliament which could seek to cut Italy’s planned purchase of JSFs from 90 to around 45. The country has already reduced its total buy from the originally planned 131 aircraft. But a second source said that debate inside the party is still continuing, and that the final document may merely threaten a cut if Italy does not obtain better conditions on the U.S.-led program.

Both sources said the document — which could be ready this month — would strive to make Italy invest in the multirole, ground attack version of the Eurofighter. Italy, a partner in the Lockheed Martin JSF program, has hitherto shown relatively little interest in the European plane. “We are really looking to push for European defense integration,” said the second source.

The Democratic Party is currently a partner in a coalition government led by party member Enrico Letta. In December, the party elected a new secretary, Matteo Renzi, who has been tapped as a candidate to win elections and form a Democratic Party government next year. Renzi, who has in the past talked about cutting JSF purchases, would need to approve the evolving party policy document on defense before it is turned into a resolution for voting on in parliament, where the Democratic Party already has a majority in the lower house.

The first source said that 75 percent of Democratic Party members of parliament want to scrap the JSF program altogether as Italy struggles through an economic crisis. Recent criticism by the Pentagon’s top testing office has also spurred opposition to the program, he said. The final report, he said, could call for a “drastic cut” in F-35 orders, potentially as much as half.

But the second source suggested the move to cut — or not cut — could hinge on whether Italy can wring better work share, better technology transfer and lower prices from the program. The source also suggested that savings could be found on other programs as an alternative to JSF cuts, such as the army digitalization program. An early draft of the report complains that the program costs too much and lacks interoperability with NATO standards............

I guess it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise, given the state of the Italian economy. Can we have some concessions too?

Looks like 617 will definitely have some jets to fly...

From the BBC News website:

The UK is about to commit to the F-35 fighter project, a US-led effort to produce 3,000 aircraft which is set to cost more than £600bn globally.


The initial UK order for 14 F-35Bs will, with support costs added, cost about £2.5bn, Newsnight has learned.


Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said the F-35B was an expensive plane, but one with an "incredible capability".


See their website for more... or perhaps someone with 'link' privileges could post it..?

Here you go, Buddy.

BBC News - UK to spend £2.5bn on F-35 fighters

We can all do that, btw. Use the link symbol (a little globe with a chain link) to enter the address. :ok:

Also see the Newsnight F35 piece to be broadcast tonight 22:30 BBC2 ... and then on iPlayer thereafter :ok:

BBC Newsnight F35

Very good Centurion, very good indeed.:D:D:D

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...V9-rkP_kNhBhqA

Sorry but I persist in thinking that EMALS with F/A18s would have been by far the better bet. Aircraft that we know would work and more of them. I feel that we are spending money that we will seriously regret.

But can a Rhino hover and bow at an airshow.... :E

S41

(Come to think of it, never seen Dave-B do it either. Sure the bootflap mafia are working on it though. Why, oh, why, did we cancel EMALS and the -C? :ugh:)

And they still plan on doing final assembly in Italy? - now that's going to be expensive on per unit basis.

'NITRO104' asked on page 208 of this thread: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post8305001
The hour long video referenced below offers explanations for several things including the hook testing. The audio answer is downloadable below here at 5Mb .WMA. It is said that 30+ roll-in successful arrests were conducted at NAS Lakehurst with subsequently 6 successful fly-in arrests (100%) at NAS Patuxent River recently. The 'Shake, Rattle & Roll' testing has started however it is early days the USN test pilot LCDR Burks admits.

The Super Hornet testing illustrated earlier gives an indication of what is in store for the F-35C, exactly what/when of course I do not know until that info is revealed to the public. I believe somewhere on this forum there is a VX-23 explanation about 'SRR' for the Hornet/Super Hornet which will be - we can imagine - is applicable to the F-35C over time.

5Mb .WMA audio file: http://tinyurl.com/nygtz8d

http://static.dvidshub.net/media/thu...86x274_q75.jpg

Video: Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? 12 Feb 2014
DVIDS - Video - Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say?
________________

Two references to VX-23 'SRR' Shake Rattle and Roll testing here:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7839095
&
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post8180517

Report from AVM Brecht last night at Cambridge University:


Gone too far to be cancelled.


This aircraft will be able to do ISTAR as well as drop bombs and missiles. I could not work out how the radar in the nose can see behind. probably some form of invisible mirror on a stalk out front!


Upbeat message about UK staff being embedded in the team. Must be hundreds of staff on long term detached duty across the pond. Even the OCU will be based in the US.


Interesting take on logistics and spares support. A common pool of spares for all nations. Only take title upon delivery. I wonder what happens if consumption of a particular widget becomes critical who has first call on the few left in the stores.


The young cadets in attendance have an interesting future to look forward too.

AVM Brecht is a top bloke and has his head in reality land. However, he is mistaken about F-35 doing any ISTAR, more's the pity.

The aircraft should have good sensors and the ability to share some of this information co-operatively. Unfortunately there is no means to distribute any wideband information and no realistic means to record anything the sensors collect for post-flight analysis. Indeed, only the image of what the pilot has actively selected on his display is recorded. The aircraft is capable of so much more but the US is more interested in strapping everything down due to security concerns than allowing anything to be exploited post-flight.

Hopefully the iron-grip will relax as the aircraft matures.