It has nothing to do with conspiracy. The F-35 plan is being executed in broad daylight and on the record, albeit using a lot of resources to influence opinions. A lot of the "information" disseminated over the years, however, has proven to have been (to put it most kindly) highly optimistic.

You might want to read more deeply into this thread, and you might also want to develop some manners, and pigs might fly too. Ignore function GO.

I have to say, that is a beautiful looking jet. They need to get their programme moving, though, it makes the F-35 development look like a success story at the moment. You can bet that the airframe is put together like a brick-built sh1t house, only stronger. At least they will be able to be sure of a market for it.

You have to admire a country that puts mud guards on their fighter's nosewheels.

I'm impressed your ability to consider alternate views, by hitting ignore. And where does the military fit into all this?

Killface (lovely name btw), as we've been swamped here with walts and trolls lately and you've suddenly turned up here punching and with no awareness of the months of discussion, it might help if you saved everyone a lot of time by offering a little more background than your profile offers. It may appear to some that might you could be yet another single-issue fanatic.

Just trying to help. It would be pretty pointless for youtaking the trouble to compose posts if everyone is put off by your entry and simply puts you into the ignore bin.

Killface, if you haven't read the entire thread from start to this point, there is some interesting back and forth, and some utter dross, worth soaking in before jumping into the scrum. ;)

I am a single issue fanatic. My issue is I can't find the truth on anything with the JSF. The entire thing has taken on the air of a political side A vs side B and the same bad ideas that come from such arguing. Its frustrating, and doesn't help anyone learn anything.

:ugh:

I'm trying to research and everything seems nice and logical with other airplanes and then you get to the JSF and its a mess. you can't find anything that doesn't have somebodys "fingerprints" on it. everything has a twist or a bent to it, and people take those as facts

can we at least get an agreement on what the helmet cost?

Welcome to the forum. I'm a serving Royal Air Force pilot with a mostly air defence background. How about you?

My name's Courtney and I'm an aeroholic. Retired Royal Air Force Pilot with a strange mixture of roles, but pretty much an air defender. But I can stop any time I want.

Killface,

I can't help you on the price of the helmet, but a good place to get a point of truth on the F-35 programme is the US GAO website. A search there using 'F-35' or 'Joint Strike Fighter' will bring up a number of very clear and readable reports with accurate cost and schedule information.

The recent 'Quick Look' report (also called the 'Ahern' report after its senior author) can be found via the 'POGO' (Progress on Government Oversight') website. That gave an accurate, unbiased view of the state of the programme.

Best Regards

Engines

30+ years of open source research and analysis on stealth. Tracking JSF and its direct predecessors since 1986.

By the way, banging on about tinfoil hats is trolling. It is not an "alternate view".

You might consider changing that silly name. too.

Engines is right about the QLR and the GAO reports. You can also find Congressional Research Service reports online as well, which include an up-to-date potted history.

Thank you engines.

I thought you were ignoring me, Bill.

Whilst the Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA very much looks the part, certainly much more aesthetically pleasing than the F-22, surely the IR signature from that engine layout is going to be enormous?

-RP

Sorry, Engines, but calling any POGO report "accurate, unbiased" is of the same factual level as JSFfan calling LockMart press releases "accurate, unbiased".

They are opposite sides of spin.

POGO has an axe to grind, and it shows in their reports.


Like most things in this world the truth lies somewhere between the two, and only time will show which was closer to reality.

And looking at all those panels with perpendicular (and visible) edges I somehow doubt it will really have an RCS in the Ballpark of F-22 or F-35.
It might be a tad better than the Super Hornet but I tend to think it will not be by Orders of magnitude.
That said it looks like a more balanced approach, not putting all eggs into one basket. I expect the kinetic performance (also at higher Mach and altitude) to be excellent on that bird.

I have just reread the POGO report on the F-35A Ready for Training OUE and I have to say that it seems to be very well balanced report. Don't be tempted to imagine it's biased against the F-35A just because it exposes its considerable deficiencies - that is the point of conducting the evaluation and there would be some serious questions to answer had the team failed to expose actual and potential operational and air worthiness issues.

I would have loved to have seen this level of scrutiny published during the early days of a number of other programmes.

The purpose of any evaluation is not to say how well the programme is going, it is to discover faults and short-falls and make recommendations. This report does that very well. The fact that there are so many failings at this stage is, indeed, unfortunate. We now await some serious technological progress in order to rectify the issues and move the programme forward.

http://pogoarchives.org/straus/ote-i...o-20130215.pdf

Stuffy the PAK-FA/T50 is still in development we have no real idea how it will actually perform as a whole. Why does this aircraft on which there is very little public source information have an assumed 'superiority'. We'll just have to wait and see how it and the Chinese stealth jets pan out.

Engines' reference to David Ahern's report is also points to some interesting reading; mostly stuff we've been discussing here for the past year or more and the fact that it was published some 18 months ago the issues raised are largely the challenges that LM are still trying to fix today So it remains highly relevant.

Re the T50, as I said a day or so ago, it's a great looking jet, but the Russians need to get the programme moving. The one point that is worth noting is the flight envelope, which appears to have better 'natural' limits than the F-35 even at this stage. The rest remains to be seen.

Will the Navy Find a New Aircraft that Can Replace JSFail?

yeah they seem unbiased.

X 47 once the price drops!

Oh dear, Killface. You really are another fanatic here. No one said POGO were unbiased, the only comment I saw here was CMil's judgement on two reports, nothing to do with the organisations or people that wrote them. Maybe give some credence to people that have been involved in these matters. If your interest is purely research on the grounds that you want to learn, maybe listen and read rather than judge and criticise.

You are already appearing to be an all to familiar troll. Thus far you are far more interested in expressing views than seeking answers, contrary to your stated aims.