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The first bit was. My point was that the horn of Africa isn't exactly awash with opportunities for its citizens. Conversely, its offering good prospects for the various navies patrolling its seas - they've never had it so good... incapable of work |
The people of the Horn of Africa have precisely the same opportunities to better their lives as the rest of us. Hard work, the rule of law etc. They choose piracy.
Now there's an idea. Perhaps we could gainfully employ them as fishery protection officers? They'd sure give those Japanese commercial (sorry, 'research') whaling ships one hell of a scare. |
yamagata ken
You say, "whaling is a legal activity"; so was slavery. Both repulsive activities cloaked in legal niceties.
I won't be returning to argue the point, so don't waste your time responding. Tanimbar |
I'm with you Tanimbar, whaling is a game for the childish, suspicious & cruel; which is a label we've learned to put on Japan since Dec' 7th, 1941.
No B.S. is going to remove that; it's said the attack on Pearl Harbour was modelled on Taranto; difference is, chum, that we were already at war, not a sly back-stabbing move like the Japanese made. There's also the fact that the Japanese were extremely cruel to POW's - I met a pensioner who broke into tears as he related 400 nurses being marched off a beach then machine-gunned; so don't expect any sympathy from me re. the Atom bombs. I will never buy anything with a Japanese ( Or German ) label on it. DZ |
Double Zero
A quick glance at your last few posts makes it quite clear that you have a rather unpleasant BNP smell about you..... so far we know that you don't like Germans, Kenyans, Somalis and Japanese. Any more that you would like to add? |
Tourist,
The ony unpleasant smell abut me is from last night's curry. I have lived in France but don't call them 'Cheese eating surrender Monkeys' ,( copyright the excellent Simpsons ). I have tried to teach Africans on aircraft systems with an open mind, have you ? I don't give a toss about colour of skin, but I do draw a line at people getting control of arms then shooting themselves and anyone in range to bits ! The Somali's are just begging for Darwin at an accelerated rate...and I wouldn't touch the BNP with a disinfected barge-pole, one of the greatest laughs I had in France ( Burgundy ) was when our skipper, who spoke like a native, was apporoached by the French eqiuvalent of BNP, who asked him for support in kicking these foreignours out ! We couldn't recruit French people for any money ( and it was quite good ) as they know how to live, it seems we Brits only know how to fight. I did get a wonderful long balloon flight out of it which raised severe American racist worries ( I thought it was a nice day out in glorious countyside ), but that's a whole different story in itself. DZ |
I thought we were discussing pirates.
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Where did the Japanese machine gun 400 nurses on a beach? Not downplaying the horror of the incident in any way, but the atrocity you refer to sounds like Banka Island where 20 Australian nurses were machine gunned in early 1942 (and one, Sr Vivian Bulwinkel, survived).
NLA Australian Newspapers - article display You do your argument no favours overstating the scale of the massacre. As for Somali pirates... they should take a page from history and do a no hold barred carbon copy of what was done to the Barbary pirates quite some years ago now. |
No B.S. is going to remove that; it's said the attack on Pearl Harbour was modelled on Taranto; difference is, chum, that we were already at war, not a sly back-stabbing move like the Japanese made. In the hours before dawn, U.S. Navy vessels spotted an unidentified submarine periscope near the entrance to Pearl Harbor. It was attacked and reported sunk by the destroyer USS Ward (DD-139) and a patrol plane. At 7:00 a.m., an alert operator of an Army radar station at Opana spotted the approaching first wave of the attack force. The officers to whom those reports were relayed did not consider them significant enough to take action. The report of the submarine sinking was handled routinely, and the radar sighting was passed off as an approaching group of American planes due to arrive that morning. |
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Fubaar,
I am reporting what a chap covered in medals said to me as he broke down, on the train after a 'do'. I'm pretty sure I have heard of the atrocity mentioned, elsewhere. Back to Somali pirates, people are going to get seriously P'd off with their antics, if I were an insurance broker I don't think I'd take their future's on, if a 'security expert' I might be tooling up & spending more on advertising ! Even these dim gits must realise the next ship they go for may be flying a small yellow flag - ' Q '-... |
mra4eng
Perhaps it was the "former Para" with the dodgy VC and 60 years worth of other medals who keeps appearing on Remembrance Day Parades? |
BANGKA ISLAND MASSACRE (St. Valentine's Day, February 14, 1942)
On board the liner SS Vyner Brooke (Captain R. E. Borton, OBE) named after its onetime owner Sir Charles Vyner Brooke, Rajah of Sarawak, and in peacetime had sailed between Singapore and Kuching, were 65 Australian Army nurses of the 2/10 and the 2/13th Australian General Hospitals in Singapore who, together with other civilian women and children, made up the 330 persons being evacuated from the city. In the Banka Strait, a narrow strip of water between the islands of Bangka and Sumatra, the Vyner Brooke was bombed and sunk by Japanese planes. A few lifeboats managed to reach the mangrove lined shore of Bangka Island. On advice from some islanders they were advised to give themselves up to the Japanese as there was no hope of escaping. That night another lifeboat arrived on the shore containing between 30 and 40 British servicemen from another ship sunk earlier. The civilian women, some nurses and children, then set out to walk to the nearest Japanese compound to give themselves up. When the Japanese arrived at the beach the men and women were separated, the men were marched into the jungle, never to be heard of again. The soldiers returned and forced the remaining 22 nurses to wade out into the sea. There, in waist deep water, they were machined-gunned to death, leaving only one survivor, Sister Vivian Bullwinkle, who later managed to reach the island's Japanese Naval Headquarters where she was put to work in the hospital. For over three years she kept the secret of the massacre to herself and a few friends. To speak openly about it would have been a certain recipe for execution. Of the 65 nurses from the Vyner Brooke, 12 had drowned, 21 shot in the water at Radji Beach and 32 had gone into prison in Muntok before being shipped to Palembang in southern Sumatra to serve three-and-a-half years of privation and punishment as prisoners of war. Sadly, only 24 survived the war. (Sister Bullwinkle died in Perth, Western Australia, in 2000, aged 84). |
Thanks for that, though the numbers are significantly different; note the men marched away who were never heard of again.
I read & write History, unlike the people having a go at me. Let me put it in simple terms; would you rather stay in my figurative prison camp, or a Japanese one ?! I say again, I've heard mention of this atrocity before, and the chap I was talking to was no Walt, you and I aren't worthy to lick his boots even if he did get figures wrong ( my fault entirely if that proves to be the case ). DZ |
Without wanting to add to the personal abuse on this thread, I think some of the comments here are frankly ridiculous.
Double Zero You cannot tar all Kenyans, or all Africans, with the same brush. Many years ago one of my Engineering lectuers commented that he had worked in Kenya, and was demoralised when her returned to teach in the UK - due to the lack of willingness to work/learn. Whether you intended it or not, your comments sound quite racist... As to the Japanese and Germans, everyone knows of the appalling acts carried out in WWII by both nations, and Japan has never acknowledged responsibility. Not sure why this is being discussed here.... yamagata ken Are you having a laugh? People in the Horn of Africa have the same opportunities are us in the developed world? Is that what you think? And you say the Somalis have opted for piracy - what, all of them? No Somalis suffer because of pirate attacks against World Food Programme or other ships then? Isn't Somalia a failed state, and the current piracy is a symptom of the anarchy and chaos there? Certainly the senior naval figures at the recent IONS meeting think so: ABU DHABI, May 13, 2010 (AFP) - Navies can intercept Somali pirate skiffs and foil hijackings but fighting waves of attacks at sea will not solve the problem, which is rooted in instability on land in Somalia, naval leaders say. Anti-piracy efforts "will not actually resolve the base problem of why piracy is occurring ... That solution lies in the stabilisation" of Somalia, Commodore Bob Tarrant, director of Britain's Royal Navy staff, told AFP at the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) in Abu Dhabi. "The symptoms (piracy) we're seeing now off Somalia, in the Gulf of Aden, are clearly an outcome of what's going on on the ground" there, said Australia's navy chief, Vice Admiral Russell Crane. "As sailors, we're really just treating the symptoms," not the root of the problem. Razor61 So the French, Dutch, USA and Russians all assault the ships with pirates holding their nationals hostage, what do we do? Shadow the ships (and yacht) and let it go with the hostages onboard... or just circle around doing nothing. Well, sometimes, that does work. See: HMS Chatham Forces Release of Pirated Dhow So you say the French used special forces to assault a pirate held yacht. The USS Bainbridge towed a liftraft 25 yards astern, then when the hostage jumped clear the pirates were engaged, by Special Forces snipers (SEALs) who had spent hours setting up. The Russian and Dutch Navies used Marines to recapture ships were the crew were locked in safe compartments, in other words, no hostages were involved. I think you are talking about this incident. Can anyone see any difference here? Perhaps the difference between a warship and a RFA? No special forces? Two vessels on two different courses? Hostages held, on a tiny boat full of fuel and other stuff that burns? Was Wave Knight right, or should they have attempted to take out the pirates with GPMG, Mingun, and maybe even 30mm fire? Perhaps the person who responded on the Times website and advocated that the pirates could be engaged by riflemen (sic) and the hostages rescued by swimmers (sic) was right? Or perhaps not. This incident was discussed at length on ARRSE, and as noted there, it was the media making a story out of nothing. Sadly, most of the public seem to be unable to use their brains and think everything is as simple a clear cut as the media likes to pretend. Much of the media coverage is politically driven crap by tenth rate hacks like Max Hastings who don't even bother to check basics. |
Anti-piracy efforts "will not actually resolve the base problem of why piracy is occurring ... That solution lies in the stabilisation" of Somalia, Commodore Bob Tarrant, director of Britain's Royal Navy staff, told AFP at the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) in Abu Dhabi. "The symptoms (piracy) we're seeing now off Somalia, in the Gulf of Aden, are clearly an outcome of what's going on on the ground" there, said Australia's navy chief, Vice Admiral Russell Crane. "As sailors, we're really just treating the symptoms," not the root of the problem. There are three stages needed to deal with the problem. The first is to impose an IMO-backed ban on the payment of ransoms. The insurance companies are lucratively stoking the problem by handing out millions in ransom payments. Of course this is highly profitable for them as they claw back every penny, and a lot more, in elevated premiums. The second is for the world maritime community to provide a fisheries protection patrol service for the whole of Somalia's EEZ. Interdict foreign 'pirate' trawlers. Arrest the crews and hand them over to the Somali Courts for trial and sentencing. Interdict the dumpers of toxic waste. Arrest them too. Thirdly, and only when the other two conditions have been met, adopt a Russian style kick-arse military posture to deal with *every* case of ship hijacking. |
I'm with your third stage LF. The first two are optional.
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Arrest the crews and hand them over to the Somali Courts for trial and sentencing The Somali pirates families had better get down on their knees and pray to their God that the Russians were very reserved in their treatment of the last bunch of pirates, because the world was watching. If the Russians really had their way... they would not only blast every single pirate boat out of the water... they would set to, and plaster most of Somalia with a naval barrage, that wouldn't leave a single thing standing. |
From the little I know of the pirates, I think we may be missing part of the story here.
Yes, the pirates ARE criminals, and yes they do this for a living. They hijack many more ships/vessels than they need to per head of pirate, in terms of earning enough money to live,or even live well. So, this can discount the theory they hijack, as there primary living of fishing has been destroyed by oil slicks from Western companies (the pirates like to tell us it's OUR fault they do it). The cost of living in the region is very cheap compared to ours, yet many pirates pull in more cash per annum than a UK GP would, so it is not just to get out of poverty. Another point often glossed over or missed, is that many of the hijacked crew do not put up any resistance. Why could this be? If we discount many crews from western/Russian or USA ships (as these fight back), why would the crew not resist khat chewing ruthless pirates? It is also true that vessels in the area could sail further out to see, or for virtually no expense fit anti piracy measures (such as steel plate running boards). This would make sense, as the pirates know where the vessels are at any given time (or where they are going) by using 'free' internet software to track movements. We often talk of huge ransoms being given to pirates (and are rightly disgusted), but there is little press coverage of the insurance payouts for lost/hijacked vessels! I think that if the major insurers could add a clause that hijacked vessels would not receive a payout for ANY losses, UNLESS they had taken all measure to prevent this happening (some of the above, plus say, no more than four hours extra sailing to avoid the coastal areas), then the hijackings would go down dramatically in number. I am possibly being very coy here, but there are several rusty old buckets hijacked while sailing very slowly, and also quite close to the coast, and with no anti pirate defences. Oddly the crews of these vessels (of whom some may be locals) do not put up any resistance. So, do some of these pirates have a good and legal way to better their lives, as per above? Yes, it is simply a case of not trying to hijack a Russian vessel, but rather to have a half hearted attack on anything, and be caught in the act by the British:} If I were a pirate, I would be doing that right now, and then asking for residence in the UK, with all the benefits that can bring. The Brits would take one look at me: A drug eating AK47 holding criminal and possible murderer, and have to let me in (on the grounds there are folks exactly like ME in my own country, who kill people):}:}. |
WHAT Somali courts?? |
From The Guardian 27th of April:
Paul and Rachel Chandler, who are both in their 50s, were bundled into a car yesterday when al-Shabaab insurgents moved into the pirate stronghold of Harardhere in the coastal region of north Somalia. The Islamic group usually operates in southern and central Somalia but has shifted north in a possible attempt to crack down on piracy. Maslah Yare, who leads the pirate gang that is holding the Chandlers, said the group fled into a forest to escape the militants after they moved into the town. "Al-Shabaab militants are chasing us," Yare told The Associated Press. The Chandlers were kidnapped in October while on a yachting holiday. The pirates seized their 38ft yacht in the Indian Ocean as they sailed toward Tanzania. He said that pirates would abandon the Chandlers if the militants close in on them "because our lives are more important to us than holding on to them". Ahmed Salad, a local businessman, said an advance team of al-Shabaab militants entered the pirates' territory in two vehicles on Sunday night after they forced out moderate Islamists from nearby villages. He said the militants later withdrew. Another resident of Harardhere said the pirates had started to withdraw from the town to another pirate enclave called Hobyo. "The town is nearly empty after the pirates have left it," said businessman Yusuf Arush. "It is calm but tense." Drugs, alcohol and prostitution have thrived in Harardhere since it became a pirate stronghold. Such activities are opposed by al-Shabaab, an ultra-conservative Islamist militia that carries out lashings, stonings and amputations as punishment. At present Somali pirates hold 15 vessels and more than 300 hostages. |
Another point often glossed over or missed, is that many of the hijacked crew do not put up any resistance. Why could this be? The problem of arming merchant ships crews raises a lot of problems, including the racheting-up of pirates weaponry if they know a crew is armed. I consider a better idea is to have heavily armed escorts shadowing vessels, and pouncing on pirates the instant they show signs of piracy-like movements. Low Flier - If the Somali Sharia courts were effective, piracy would be lessening, and the Somalis would be stringing them up. I'd suggest the Somali courts are soft on pirates, and are more concerned with local land and personal disputes, in line with Sharia Law. Remember, every country that operates under Sharia Law has a major twist towards savage retribution towards what we in the West would consider minor personal indiscretions... yet is prepared to let major crimes go unpunished, particularly if it's done in the name of Allah, and against the hated Westerners. I notice that they have no problem with accepting donated food, in sacks with an American flag on them, though..... :rolleyes: |
Most ships seem to drive around the world with a Panamanian or Bahamas flag on the back so the outside observer would not know whether the shipping company was based in or London or Tokyo.
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There are three stages needed to deal with the problem. |
Stage III is my suggestion....designed around the proper installation and use of my favorite Anti-Pirate device.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS...G_Army_pic.jpg |
I like your style !
In reality, cruise & merchant ships have tried ( for real ) such things as very powerful acoustic and high power water 'soft no-kill' 'weapons', but it seems only the real stuff will deterr the pirates... |
Donkey's years ago I saw what must have been one of the last of the Liberty ships in Belize harbour sporting a Bofors like anti-aircraft gun on a raised foredeck. Piracy in the Caribbean was not unknown at the time so this was their answer.
I can forsee some Somali pirates highjacking a vessel. Sailing it down the Somali coast picking up hoards of extra passengers and then sailing it to Southampton. They would be met by an army of refugee groups and Legal Aid lawyers and in no time they would be set up in a house with free furniture, TV and lots of money to keep going with. |
Not if I got there first in my Kilo class sub' ( simply as it's cheaply available, nothing to do with the truly crap book of that title )or Sea Harrier with Sea Eagle- now let's get back to reality, which is mad enough; if you haven't read it already try the book - not film - 'Black Hawk Down'...
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Ships were first armed with cannon in the 15th century. At this time, no disctinction was made in the design of military or merchant ships.
The merchant ship of choice in the 16th centry, the carrack, was armed. The East Indiamen trading ships of the 17th and 18th centuries were heavily armed, able to slug it out with ships-of-the-line on equal terms. The 19th century saw the development of the clipper, which relied mainly on speed to avoid piracy. Also, privateering was outlawed in 1856 through the Convention of Paris. Armed merchantmen were used extensively in the 20th century, by both sides during WWI and WWII, in both defensive and offensive roles. The current situation with piracy in not new or unique. It is just a different geopolitical climate in which it is has taken root. Having to fight to protect your international trade is an enduring historical reality. I can't see that changing anytime soon. |
The greatest single problem facing those who wish to wipe out Somali pirates is "legal restrictions". Those who wiped out piracy in the past had no such BS restrictions. Piracy doesn't warrant any legal protection... just a good dose of HE ordnance or many multiple rounds of large calibre bullets.
BBC - Somali pirates live the high life... BBC NEWS | Africa | Somali pirates living the high life BBC - Can Somali pirates be defeated?... BBC News - Can Somali pirates be defeated? The answer to the last question shouldn't involve any navel-gazing or considerations about possibly causing pain, to some people not directly involved in piracy. All Somalis support piracy, directly or indirectly. BBC - Inside story of a Somali pirate attack... BBC NEWS | Africa | Inside story of Somali pirate attack The simple technique of declaring war on Somali pirates will solve any "legal" ramifications. Under world-recognised Geneva Conventions, after a declaration of war, there are only 4 basic reasons needed to shoot to kill... otherwise known as the Rules of Engagement... 1. The enemy is wearing a recognised combatant style of dress or uniform... 2. The enemy refuses to stop when challenged... 3. The enemy fires on you... 4. The enemy is armed and threatening you... |
Here we go again: "War on terror" "War on drugs" "War against want".
Ho hum. Always the war talk. Never an understanding of the underlying problems. The Americans tried that **** in Mogadishu. It didn't work. |
Okay Low Flier, what's your brilliant answer then ?
Barry, Merchant ships were indeed armed, including East Indiamen, but never able to take on a fully tooled up Ship Of the Line; they were equipped to take on pirates, not warships. Even the square rigged training ship 'Royalist' has dummy painted on gunports, as the East Indiamen did, but this time for the sake of looks rather than deterrence - her only armament apart from what the skipper may have tucked away is a saluting cannon ! And yes I have sailed her and a few others, not as a Cadet but being given a lift home after a hairy delivery trip in my little boat. Merchant ships such as Carracks were always a little bit fatter & slower, for load carrying, compared to their contempory warships, once the two types began developing. As for the Somalis, I've said it before & I'll say it again, time for a 'Q' Ship ! That's not any 'Western' theory, I'd be similarly p'd off at attacks on any ship or yacht from anywhere. |
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I can't stand him, unreadable !
Try Patrick O'Brian or Star Trek II ( which has a surprising amount of literary & tall ship allusions )... |
Double Zero, I've already answered your bizarrely expressed question, in post#57.
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Nothing bizzare, except to a Somali pirate, who you're doing a good impression of.
Where exactly do aircraft come in, apart from my bright idea of an 'Atlantic Conveyor' style container ship with a gun & rocket equipped Harrier hidden away ?! BTW I was on the Harrier II & FRS1&2 development team, so not speaking as a total novice ( total knob maybe, but that's a different subject !)... |
Onetrack
In response to your quoting of me, and your subsequent response: Quote: Another point often glossed over or missed, is that many of the hijacked crew do not put up any resistance. Why could this be? It is because crews are NOT armed, and deliberately so, by ship owners...and the crews are instructed to offer no resistance to pirates, for fear of antagonising them, and suffering crew fatalities as a result. The problem of arming merchant ships crews raises a lot of problems, including the racheting-up of pirates weaponry if they know a crew is armed. I consider a better idea is to have heavily armed escorts shadowing vessels, and pouncing on pirates the instant they show signs of piracy-like movements. I did say I was being coy in my post!! I am referring to the fact that many ships are said to to be hijacked to order (read: insurance jobs) which is why they are traveling slowly, near to the coast, have crews who may know the pirates and and do not put up resistance. Clearly my mentioning of not including western, Russian or other such ships made no impact:) I did not mention the crews of these ships are usually armed, but did think the other points had covered the subject:ok:. |
Yes, it is simply a case of not trying to hijack a Russian vessel, but rather to have a half hearted attack on anything, and be caught in the act by the Britishhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif If I were a pirate, I would be doing that right now, and then asking for residence in the UK, with all the benefits that can bring. The Brits would take one look at me: A drug eating AK47 holding criminal and possible murderer, and have to let me in (on the grounds there are folks exactly like ME in my own country, who kill people) Terror ringleader' to stay in UK The alleged leader of an al-Qaeda plot to bomb targets in north-west England has won his appeal against deportation. A special immigration court said Abid Naseer was an al-Qaeda operative - but could not be deported because he faced torture or death back home in Pakistan. Mr Naseer, 23, was one of 10 Pakistani students arrested last April as part of a massive counter-terrorism operation in Liverpool and Manchester. Another student, Ahmad Faraz Khan, also 23, won his appeal on similar grounds. The security services believed the men were planning to attack within days of their arrest, but neither student was charged. 'Stigmatised for life' The Home Secretary, Theresa May, said she would not be appealing against the ruling, handed down by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission. “ It's no way to conduct justice. If people have committed a crime, put them on trial ” Gareth Peirce Students' lawyer She said: "We are disappointed that the court has ruled that Abid Naseer and Ahmad Faraz Khan should not be deported to Pakistan, which we were seeking on national security grounds. "As the court agreed, they are a security risk to the UK. We are now taking all possible measures to ensure they do not engage in terrorist activity." |
Dear God, what kind of brain dead justice system do you have in the UK these days? I thought Canada was the only nation stupid enough to make this sort of decision, I see we are not alone in our over the top PC crap,such decisions will come back to haunt us in the future, then Im sure those resposible will be safe in their gated comunity on a nice indexed government pension.
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ABU DHABI, May 13, 2010 (AFP) - Navies can intercept Somali pirate skiffs and foil hijackings but fighting waves of attacks at sea will not solve the problem, which is rooted in instability on land in Somalia, naval leaders say. Anti-piracy efforts "will not actually resolve the base problem of why piracy is occurring ... That solution lies in the stabilisation" of Somalia, Commodore Bob Tarrant, director of Britain's Royal Navy staff, told AFP at the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) in Abu Dhabi. "The symptoms (piracy) we're seeing now off Somalia, in the Gulf of Aden, are clearly an outcome of what's going on on the ground" there, said Australia's navy chief, Vice Admiral Russell Crane. "As sailors, we're really just treating the symptoms," not the root of the problem. Some have suggested looking back in history. I would agree and ask those who have this problem as part of there responsibilities to study the manner in which Pompey dealt with the pirates. To quote Cicero: "Pompey made his preparations for the war at the end of the winter, entered upon it at the commencement of spring, and finished it in the middle of the summer." |
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