Back to the top with this.

I note from my, and others' recent replies from the Mod's redoubtable Mrs Bellchambers, that their tone is a lot less frosty. No longer the tired old 'no new evidence' mantra, but an assurance that they are looking carefully at their Lordships' report.

The delay, is, I hope, due to the efforts to withdraw without too much loss of face.

There is still no word from the MoD, nor from Minister Hoon. Why?? :confused:

Might be time to drop him yet another letter, although now knowing he is not a fast reader, I wonder if that would be wise.

I suppose I could always write it slowly! ;)

Surely a decision has been reached by now. Perhaps the MoD is having difficulty selling the decision to one (or maybe two) people.

Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

It must be getting close to that time when lots more letters are required. This time perhaps we should be getting a little mean. This is in danger of becoming a constitutional issue and will unless the MoD agree that the HoL were correct. This means that the conclusion should be changed until new evidence is produced which proves otherwise i.e. innocent until proven guilty!

Lord Chalfont has a question on Chinook coming up to be debated/answered in m'Luds chamber...it is to ask HMG whether they expect a response to the Select Committee Report on the Chinook Accident ZD 576 before the summer recess...he is obviously a PPrune regular!

Keeping it at the top...

Hi folks,
sorry things appear quiet. In reality, they're not. The campaign is still irritating people where necessary (in other words - constantly).

Latest rumour is that a response will be given prior to the Summer recess, although exactly when before the recess is not yet known. I promise that I'll let you all know as soon as I do.

Please keep the pressure on.

Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Brian

Given past performance, it will probably be contained in an obscure written reply lodged in the House of Commons library at about 15:30 on the day before the recess.

Hi Mr P.
Trust you are keeping well.

Rest assured - Wherever they decide to publish their finding, I will find a way to link to this thread!

Almost three months have passed since the findings of the Lords Select Committee. Time is rapidly running out.

Yes, dearest MoD, I'm still here and I will continue to irritate the hell out of you.

Your evidence is in tatters and the honour of the RAF is being tarnished with each day that is allowed to pass. Do the correct, honourable and long-overdue thing:- give the reputations of two fine young pilots back to their families.

Thanks to everyone for keeping the pressure on.
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Brian, unfortunately we don't know each other. I just wanted to put on record my admiration for and my thanks to you for your unstinting work on this issue.

EVERYONE knows that this is an injustice but, all the same, it takes someone like yourself to point it out to the masses. It is good to know that there are still people who don't lie down to injustice and, every time I am airborne that fact is of comfort. Without question, your day is fast approaching.

Hats off to you sir.

To preserve the staus quo, they are probably waiting for a good day to "bury the news"......:rolleyes:

Set 18,
thank you so much for your kind words. I am, though, one of many who fight to clear the names of Jon and Rick. I just choose to shout my mouth off on the internet!

Shy,
Fear not my friend, I have my shovel ready :D

Best wishes to all
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Back to the top. Keep up the good work!

Any more news?

Just out of curiosity, when does the present CAS' tenure end? And how much in advance would his successor be announced?

sorry not on CAS, but latest news from Lords is as follows. This was from last week in Lords chamber:

Chinook ZD576

Lord Chalfont asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they expect to provide a response to the report of the Select Committee on the Chinook ZD576 accident before the Summer Recess.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Government have said that they intend to respond to the Select Committee's report, which was published on 5th February 2002, before the six months allowed for responses to such reports has elapsed. That remains our intention. Moreover, I hope that it will be possible to publish our reply and debate the issue in your Lordships' House before the Summer Recess.


Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply. However, in the light of the fact that correspondents' letters addressed to the Government on this matter are being answered by the Air Staff secretariat, can he give the House an assurance that, before the response arrives in the House, Ministers, and not only officials, will have read the Select Committee's report and that they will not simply be relying on an Air Staff briefing?


Lord Bach: My Lords, I can reassure the noble Lord that all Ministers in the Ministry of Defence have read the Select Committee's report. But that will not preclude us from listening to the advice of our officials before final decisions are taken. I know that the noble Lord will agree that that is the best way to proceed, not least because of the time that he spent as a distinguished Minister in the MoD some years ago.


Lord Vivian: My Lords, does the Minister agree that staff at Boscombe Down reported to the MoD that they could not recommend controller aircraft release

1 May 2002 : Column 682

for the Chinook Mk2 owing to the unquantifiable risk associated with the unverifiable nature of the FADEC software, and does he agree that they recommended that it be rewritten? Can the Minister say now, or in the future response to which he has just referred, whether the software has been rewritten and independently verified and who authorised the return of those aircraft to operational service against the advice of Boscombe Down?

Lord Bach: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, whose questions I always listen to with enormous interest, the answer to his question will be very much a matter for this House when we come to debate the report. I am conscious that today the Question is about the timetable. This Question should not be an excuse for a dress rehearsal for a debate that the House will have.

[they don't call him Willy Bach for nothing!

:D ]

TL Thou,
many thanks for the update. I hope they will not keep the families hanging on much longer. They must be running out of excuses by now! Should be an interesting debate in the House!

Chippy,
I had the audacity to ask the MoD if they could advise me of the retirement date of the Air Marshal. The detailed reply simply said, "No." I believe that he mentioned resignation should the decision go against him, although this is unconfirmed.

So close ............. keep the pressure on.

Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Brian,

It was a couple of years now since I posted my own wishlist of questions that needed answering. How glad I am to see some of these highly relevant questions finally asked in the house!

Although I believe it was threatened at one stage, I can't really see a resignation in the offing. Any allocation of responsibility will probably drag on until after a retirement.....easy way out, old boy, protocol, upkeep of stiff upper lip, waffle waffle and all that....:mad:

Brian,

Thanks, I imagine you weren't too surprised at the response. It must be quite tough for some of the serving officers in MoD to witness all performance, especially the ones who can see that they could be victims of the same process...

Anyway, best regards and let's hope for the right result eventually.

Back to the top again, we musn't let Messrs Day and Wratten think we might go away!

Indeed. I think there is a Defence Debate in the Lords next week (15th). If any PPruners know any luds this might be an occasion to press them to speak up about Chinook just to give it another Parliamentary airing.

I dare say the "Great and the Good" (ex CDSs et al) will be taking part, but I don't imagine they are particularly predisposed to seeing the pilots cleared. This is a shame as such an intervention would be newsworthy and helpful.

Article from Scotland on Sunday 12th May, 2002, that may be of interest. Keep up the good work guys.

[QUOTE]

Chinook pilots may be cleared by report

BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR

A CONFIDENTIAL report that could clear two pilots of blame for the Mull of Kintyre helicopter disaster is lying on the desk of defence secretary Geoff Hoon, it emerged last night.

The Ministry of Defence has taken delivery of a technical report on the last seconds of Chinook flight ZD576 before it crashed into a hillside, killing the cream of Northern Ireland’s anti-terrorist intelligence forces, Whitehall sources have confirmed.

Ministers last month ordered Boeing, manufacturers of the doomed aircraft, to review their original analysis of the Chinook’s fatal journey in 1994 - including a flight simulation - after a House of Lords inquiry raised new questions about the cause of the crash.

But the families of RAF Flight Lieutenants Richard Cook and Jonathan Tapper may have to wait another four months to see whether the Boeing report backs the Lords’ decision to clear their sons of blame for the catastrophe.

The dossier will be sent to experts within the aviation industry for independent analysis before defence secretary Hoon makes a final decision.

MoD officials said he plans to answer the Lords’ points by September, when the six-month deadline for a response expires.

But it was clear last night that key figures within the department remain dead-set against overturning the original verdict of gross negligence handed down on both airmen.

"The technical questions the [Lords] report raised basically left us with no option but to go back to Boeing,’’ one senior ministerial source told Scotland on Sunday.

"But these are not fundamental issues. I don’t think any technical review can explain why these pilots were flying too low and too fast and into fog and therefore acting negligently before they crashed.

[QUOTE ENDS]

Yet another one who has completely missed the point! Hope this attitude does not do any harm to the cause.

Back to the top!

The MOD must be frightened to death that they will be made to look like the stupid prats they are. It is clear that they couldn't reach the conclusions that stare them in the face. What does it take to make them recognise the findings of the Lords inquiry?

InFinRetirement

You are right. they are scared. However, that makes them dangerous at they are obviously looking for any way out of the mess they created.

The summer recess is due shortly (sometime in June?) so there appears every chance the outcome will be announced during the recess.

It would be nice for this morally bankrupt administration to do the right thing for once.

waiting, waiting. so, when DO we see Wrotten on the Wrack?

:mad:

Chinook - Still Hitting Back
 

Brian, keep up the good work. The appalling arrogance with which those two very senior officers (who should have known better) changed the BOI findings and persist in trying to claim that it was still gross negligence makes me ashamed to have worn the blue-grey uniform for well over 20 years before it was finally hung up.

All power to your cause - and to your keyboard!

Thank you for your kind comments Vertico.

I hope something positive happens soon, as even the MoD will soon struggle to justify the long delay. After all, they must have realised by now that I'm in no hurry to go anywhere! :D

There was only a passing mention to the Chinook crash in the Defence Debate in the House of Lords last week. No problem though, the Government were reminded that we are still here, and the problem is still theirs!

As always, thank you to everyone for your support. I'll keep you all updated with anything that comes my way (or maybe the odd thing that gets fired off from my direction!!)

Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Just to let you all know that the petition has been updated and now contains 372 names. Thank you to everyone. Spread the word and we'll keep adding names!

A little under two weeks the the anniversary of the crash. I wonder if the Government will do something honourable before then?

Updates as and when
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

At a recent meeting I attended, I happened to bump into my MP! I voiced an opinion about the Chinook inquiry to which he agreed was done in all fairness by the Lords Select Committee, and that the MOD must do something positive "and not sit on their hands". He asked me to put my views in writing. That has been done. So still we wait!

Nothing definite to report, but a little whisper going around is that the MoD will respond sometime towards the end of June / early July. Rumour is that the MoD will continue to refuse to overturn the verdict.

Now, I have no evidence to support these rumours, but now would be a good time to recontact your MP (regardless of what replies you have had before) and make some noise over the campaign. Get them to raise the issue wherever and whenever the opportuinty arises. Also, if you haven't signed the petition please do so. Let's try to get 500 names on there!

The campaign web site is changing servers at the moment, so if you have difficulty in logging on we apologise. However, please keep trying until you are successful.

The MoD need to be told that they are not above Government. If the MoD does not have to comply with Government recommendations / instructions, surely that means they are answerable to no-one! Are you happy with that situation??

Unconstitutional if you ask me!

Time to make some noise!!!

Regards as always, and thank you for your support.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Brian,

Letter to Robert Walter MP duly sent.

If your rumours are correct and the MoD do reject the Lord's report, I assume that the campaign goes on. Presumably, whatever the outcome there will have to be a debate in the Commons which, the Government is trying to ensure, cannot be before October.

Bombarding our MP's with letters now might conceivably bring pressure for an emergency debate before the Summer recess? If it doesn't get resolved, I suggest we bombard them with letters all through the Summer, using this BB to coordinate ideas.

On this point. we should always request information back from our MP's. This means that they have to reply.

Thanks Pulse.

There will, indeed, be a debate at some point. Yet another opportunity for the Government to use the phrase "too low, too fast"?? We'll have to wait and see.

Good advice also on what to do when writing to your MP. Always give them something to do and not just ask them for support.

Talking of which, in case anyone wants to write to their MP to ask them to sign the Early Day Motion (No 829) supporting the Lords Report and calling for the Govenrment to quash the verdict, here's a sample letter:

Re: EDM 829 calling for exoneration of pilots killed in Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash

As one of your constituents, I am writing to you to ask if you would sign and lodge the attached Early Day Motion 829, which calls for the deceased pilots’ reputations to be restored.

It is almost eight years since the crash, seven years since the original verdict was brought down by a RAF Board of Inquiry. Two Air Marshals overturned the findings of the other members of that Board, and found the pilots guilty of gross negligence with no doubt whatsoever. Since that time, every couple of years there has been an inquiry into the crash: the Scottish Fatal Accidents Inquiry in 1996, the Commons Defence Committee report produced in 1998, the Commons Public Accounts Committee report in 2000, and the Lords Select Committee report in February of this year. Other than the Defence Committee, which looked at the wider implications of the crash and not its cause, all other investigations have come to the same conclusion: that the deceased pilots should never have been charged as guilty. Both the PAC and the Lords Select Committee reports call for the verdict to be overturned.

I understand that the MoD are due to respond to this latest report soon. As with their responses over the last eight years, I expect a wholly negative review from the Ministry of Defence.

By signing the EDM, you will be adding your name in support of those families who seek only to clear their sons’ names. I do hope you will feel able to do so, and I look forward to hearing from you soon.


The EDM currently has 81 signatories. Check the following link to see if your MP has already signed. If they haven't please drop them a line.

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=829

As always, I'm grateful for your help.
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Keep at it Brian. Letter with above text gone to my MP today.

Regards

FJJP

I've just finished moving the campaign website to a new server, to allow us better facilities. The address remains the same - www.chinook-justice.org.

There are two main differences - firstly, you can now sign the petition online, which means you no longer have to send us an email. I know some people were reluctant to signup as they didn't want to reveal their email addresses, so this should now no longer be an issue. Of course, you can still sign the petition by sending an email to [email protected].

Secondly we have created a mailing list, which will allow us to keep people posted with developments. As before, all email addresses submitted to us are confidential, and will not be revealed to anyone.

If there are any issues with the new site please email me - [email protected]

The petition currently stands at 372 names, so if you haven't signed up yet please do - the fight isn't over yet.

Thanks Chocks. The site looks great.

8th Anniversary of the accident today. Spare a thought for all 29 who were lost. :(

My promise to the Tapper and Cook families is that I will continue to campaign for this injustice to be rectified for as long as it takes.

Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Brian, sorry to sound a negative note, but I assume you have tactics in mind if the MOD flatly refuses to budge despite all that has gone before?

Thinking of all those who perished...

Regards,

FJJP

Hi FJJP,
there are, indeed, plans in place in the likely event of the MoD ignoring everyone else on the planet except two arrogant individuals.

Please don't think me rude if I don't go into detail just yet. Don't want to tip anyone off!!

I can only hope that the MoD will use "moral courage" and finally make the only choice available to them - that of removing the negligence slur.

We shall soon find out.
Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Brian, of course I did not expect you to give out the information on the next next phase - I was just triggering the next event!

Ever the optimist, I am hoping that MOD will see sense and make the decision that we are all waiting for. You never know - miracles do sometimes happen.

Regards,

FJJP

I also hear these worrying rumours :(

Brian you are doing an excellent job, keep up the good work. The more "irritating sods" we have bothering MPs the better.

The EDM is very important. It is on 81 signatures, it really needs to be whacked up to a ton and a half. If you read this and have not got in touch with your MP, do it now!

TL

FJJP,
apologies if my reply to you appeared to be an entry in the Granny egg sucking competition. It wasn't meant like that (although you knew that anyway!) :o

Like you, I'm hopeful - but prepared!!

TL Thou,
thank you for your kind words, but I must remind you that I am only one of many involved in the campaign. Wonder what the plural if "Irritating Sod" is? :D

Check out Computer Weekly tomorrow (06/06/02). I understand that there will be another good article by Tony Collins in there. Probably take the MoD four to six weeks to read it though!!

Regards as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook