I wonder if the crew of the Space Shuttle, which tragicaly broke up on re entry yesterday, killing all on board, will be treated with the same total lack of respect, which our government has shown the crew and famillies of this tragic thread??

I doubt it.

Posthumous medals no doubt!

Has the RAeS 'management' relented yet and published the report by the 3 members of their Flight Ops Committee into the accident?

BroomstickPilot,
will have an answer (and mission) for everyone fairly soon.

DP,
Unlikely. Condolences to the family and friends of those lost :(

Zalt,
No they didn't. The report was published as an independent document by the three members. There was, allegedly, something about an issue of the continuation of RAF membership if the report was endorsed by RAeS, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

Just in case you all don't know, have a look at the ATC thread. It would appear that the RAF are now attempting to hang one of their controllers out to dry. Eight years on - nothing changes, nothing learnt.

Thanks to everyone for your continued support. I'll shout for your help once our tactic has been confirmed.

Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

no...sorry. Still think we should let them Rest In Peace.
"Justice has no expiry date" - but life has. Why not leave them all alone lest you run out of the one whilst looking for the other?

Yum Yum - "rest in peace" is a nice idea, and it is what we are campainging for? Who exactly is currently "at peace" over this? Certainly not the families of the pilots - their parents, widows & children. When those people decide that they are content to draw a line under their son's deaths then we will stop, it is not for us to decide. Until then the campaign continues - we will not abandon them.

Yum Yum,

We won't but here's my suggestion for an easy compromise.

You leave them alone.

Thankyou.

Chocks Wahay

Thoroughly agree: well said!

Yum Yum

In my opinion, if we let the b*st**ds get away with this, it will only be a matter of time before they sacrifice some other poor B*gg*rs. Drawing a line under the episode is just what they want us to do: don't do it. I'm a civvy pilot, but I care how our mil aircrew are treated.

"...we will not abandon them..." Chocks Wahay.

"I am in blood stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er." Not Chocks.

Mr Dixon and Chocks, best wishes to you. It appears you are here for the long haul. And best wishes to all in justice. Yeild not now.

Rainbow,
thank you for your kind comments and for your support. I can assure you that the campaign has no intention of stopping at this point. Only a full vindication of Jon and Rick will suffice!

To all supporters, please be advised that the campaign group has not become inactive. You all know that there has been a restructure of the group, so all are currently looking at future strategies and tactics.

I can assure you that as soon as these are confirmed, I'll let you all know.

Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

strategy and tactics
 

Just for argument's sake, let us accept the negligence verdict on both, I repeat, both pilots. Where does that leave the MoD? A failure in CRM is now negligence - sod the Captain, I have control!

That 2 men make a blunder together, or are negligent, should be highly improbable. If there is such a blunder or negligence, it is evidence of a serious problem.

If 2 people in one cockpit were both found negligent, it would put into question RAF pilot selection criteria, flying training, flying supervision, ethos, management and leadership. What has been done about any of these issues as a result of the Chinook crash? I say again, 2 pilots were found guilty of negligence and the RAF calmly carried on as before.


Now, I sympathise with the hierarchy. There was a perceived problem with flying discipline at the time and, apparently, the hierarchy did not know how to cope. The verdict of negligence may have been seen as an opportunity to send a message to the flying community. However, if that was so, the message has had little impact.

In addition, by publicly demeaning the senior officer who chaired the BOI, the MOD has further undermined the regulatory and safety system. I won't go on, but........

Now the only possible verdict in the F-15 courts martial has been reached, let's not forget the even older injustice that the RAF and MOD needs to address.

NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER

Well said Tengah.
The only difference being that Spot was there to answer for himself. Jon and Rick were never afforded such luxury.

I had a meeting yesterday with the new Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Group, Mr James Arbuthnot MP. We had a lengthy discussion regarding which direction the Group and campaign should now take. Once the content of our talk has been taken to the families of Jon and Rick, I'll let you all know what needs to be done.

Rest assured, there will be another 'call to arms'.

I hope this reassures you all that we have not gone away.

Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Hi everyone,
just to reassure you all that there is work being carried out in one particular area of the accident. Once there is something that can be published here, I'll let you know.

Sorry to be cryptic, but we don't want to show too soon.

In the meantime, here's something we could do. Please examine all the known facts and present your scenareo of the last few moments of the flight. If you don't want to post on the thread, please consider e-mailing your conclusions to me or using the private message facility. If, in your opinion, the accident was CFIT then that's fine with me. Just explain your reasons.

Why am I asking for this? Well, it will be an interesting exercise to see just how many variables are possible from one set of facts.

Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

There is an excellent chapter on this sorry saga in Tim Slessor's book 'Ministries of Deception', Aurum Press, London. It was published last year in the hiatus between the publication of the HoL Select Committee's report and the final vote of the House - if one can can dignify the the disgorging of bemused and uninformed NuLabour hacks from late-night buses into the 'Not Contents' lobby as a vote of the House.

The book diagnoses what it call 'The Whitehall Loop' - the almost automatic tendency to dissemble and cover-up rather than just face sometimes uncomfortable truths. As well as ZD576, it covers Maj Milos Stankovic MBE, Colonel Carter OBE, Gulf War Syndrome and (at the risk of sounding like a K-Tel Ad) many, many more!

Not recommended reading for any starry-eyed subalterns, but may be of value to seasoned thorns in the side of Whitehall, or even just those with more than 5 years service!

Keep it up Brian - gone but not forgotten

Hi Mr P,
Hope you are well.
Thanks for the info on Tim Slessor's book. I shall either buy a copy or place an order for one this weekend.

Foss,
Thanks for the comment. I can assure you that I am in no hurry to go anywhere. The campaign will continue. We are currently lokking into one or two particular issues and once I have a little more solid information, I'll let you all know.

However, current circumstances elsewhere need to take priority with regard the MoD, so I may not push so hard until the dust settles, so to speak. Doesn't mean I'm not doing anything though!! ;)

Finally, to all those currently busy overseas, I would just like to say how proud I am of you all. God Speed and a swift and safe return to you all.

Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook

Good to see the special forces doing such a good job in Iraq. On video too!

Damn talented pilots, those SF guys!

Perhaps it's all gone quiet because they are all busy in the 'sand pit!'

Pleased to hear of the next assault on Buffon and his 'Irregulars.'

Watch this space. We have not gone away, we are merely awaiting orders.

"Buff" Hoon will not trouble the historians
 

Where did they find this man?

He may have had a prominent role in the Iraq war but defence secretary Geoff Hoon's wooden, gaffe-prone performance means that his part in Saddam's probable downfall will not trouble the historians

Nicholas Watt and Richard Norton-Taylor
Wednesday April 9, 2003
The Guardian

The remains of Iraq's intelligence services will be kicking themselves. At around 7.30 most mornings, two figures at the heart of the British war cabinet can be spotted in the nude having an informal natter about Iraq as they shower after a vigorous session in the gym.
Geoff Hoon and Jack Straw, the most unlikely pin-ups in the cabinet, have become a regular item at the House of Commons gym as they try to keep their minds alert by exercising every day. Straw, the once hapless foreign secretary who has since grown into the role, is an energetic member of the gym's "spinning class" for cyclists. Hoon, the plodding defence secretary, takes to the running machine where he is often spotted straightening his thinning hair in the gym's mirror as Kylie Minogue blasts out of the loudspeakers.
The sight of "Buff-Hoon", as he is known to his enemies, admiring himself in the mirror will probably go down as the one of the more memorable facts about one of the most anonymous members of the cabinet. Described even by his friends as "wooden", Hoon is likely to struggle to make it beyond the footnotes when the history of the war is written. Where Tony Blair has grown in stature to become a major world figure, and even Jack Straw does not look out of place next to the heavyweights of the US administration, Hoon's ponderous style has denied him a place in the premier league.
Critics say that his habit, as a former barrister, of stripping away emotions to examine problems dispassionately has been one of the government's weak spots during the war. They pounced last week when Hoon defended the use of controversial cluster bombs by suggesting on the Today programme that the mothers of Iraqi children would one day thank Britain for their use.
"Hoon comes across as wooden and pompous," says one MP. "He has failed to humanise the government's case. But Blair likes to appoint lawyers. The problem with all these lawyers is that they may master a brief but they never convince anyone."
Hoon, 49, who entered parliament as MP for the Nottinghamshire seat of Ashfield in 1992, is the quintessential Blairite. Fiercely loyal, strongly pro-European and congenitally incapable of the passion of a Clare Short, he is seen by Tony Blair as the ideal cabinet minister. "He has a cool head and is part of that breed of political technocrats which the prime minister admires so much."
Since winning promotion to the cabinet as defence secretary in 1999, Hoon has hardly put a foot wrong, apart from his unfortunate choice of footwear - a pair of loafers - during a recent visit to the Gulf. The military top brass, who have never taken him to their hearts in the way they embraced his predecessor George Robertson, have learned to admire Hoon after he secured the first real-terms increase in their budget since the cold war. He also demonstrated a ruthless streak recently by telling the mighty BAE Systems in blunt terms that it had no automatic right to British defence contracts because the company is no longer British-owned.
But Iraq has exposed the dangers of placing a technocrat in a key post at such a sensitive time. Hoon's habit of measuring every word before opening his mouth, which can lead to him sounding hesitant and at times slightly pompous, landed him in trouble on the first day of the war when he had what was described as an "Eric Morecambe moment". Questioned on Newsnight about why the ground campaign appeared to have started before the main air assault, he insisted that all was going to plan although "not necessarily always in the same order". Critics chuckled at the memory of the legendary 1970s comedian who defended his terrible piano playing to Andre Previn with the words: "Listen, sunshine, I'm playing the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order."
While such infelicities hardly rate as gaffes, Hoon's caution can border on the patronising. When a young man in a Question Time audience said that the extra money being set aside for the war on a weekly basis showed that the campaign was not going to plan, Hoon responded in the manner of a teacher explaining a highly complex issue to a rather dim schoolboy. "What [Gordon Brown] is simply doing is making money from the reserve available for us to draw on."
Fellow ministers complain that the private face of Hoon is little different, at least in formal settings such as the cabinet. Any ministers hoping for secret titbits of information have been disappointed as he goes through his weekly routine of briefing the cabinet on the war with annotated maps. "We hear little more than viewers get on BBC News 24," says one minister.
In recent days, as the war seems to be entering its final phase, Hoon has appeared more confident. At a press conference on Monday his face lit up when he was asked whether his awkward relationship with his US counterpart, Donald Rumsfeld, was akin to persuading two pandas to mate - difficult but eventually successful. "My children like pandas." By Hoon's standards, that should have had them rolling in the aisles.
Blairites say his increasing confidence vindicates the prime minister's faith in Hoon, who is destined for promotion in the postwar reshuffle. Fed up with the histrionics of the likes of Clare Short, the prime minister wants to use what is described as Hoon's "formidable intellectual firepower" to help complete the Blairite revolution on Europe and the public services. "Hoon's intellect is universally admired," one admirer says. "As a lateral thinker he has this ability to anticipate - at the MoD he has successfully looked beyond its immediate narrow view." One military officer, who describes his manner as "very hard", says: "He takes a brief, interrogates it, makes a decision and then goes on to the next one."
While his enemies in the anti-war camp will sniff at any promotion, it will not come as a surprise to many Labour MPs who have warmed to Hoon. MPs rather admire the way he has eschewed the smart metropolitan circles of the Mandelson set. Hoon has also endeared himself to Labour backbenchers by spending a great deal of time in the commons tea room, unlike some grander members of the cabinet. "Geoff spends a lot of time talking to people and he is not guarded by flunkies," one ministerial friend says.
Hoon, who is seven months younger than the prime minister, came to Blair's attention almost as soon as he became an MP in 1992. The rather earnest law lecturer, who had helped see off the hard left in the Labour group in Brussels as an MEP in the 1980s, managed to inflict a severe wound on the Tories in 1993 during the bloody infighting over the Maastricht treaty. His amendment to the bill, known as "Hoon's hurdle", attracted dissident Tories and forced Major to table a confidence motion in himself.
Andrew Mitchell, a Tory whip at the time who has remained friends with Hoon since their days at Cambridge in the 1970s, is full of praise. "I admired the way in which Geoff played a leading role in bowling googlies at us."
One admirer laments the fact that his dry wit, "which can be flippant", is never seen in public. "That means Geoff is a bit like a stealth bomber," the minister says. "He has no profile and you can't get a radar fix on him."

We're still here, Mr. Dixon.

Thank you for the reassurance BroomstickPilot. Continued support has never been in doubt.

My apologies for the silence lately. It was deemed appropriate to allow the MoD to deal with recent overseas commitments, so the campaign took a bit of a back seat.

I can, however, confirm that things are gearing up again, and currently a letter is with the MoD enquiring about several issues surrounding the serviceability of ZD576 and why was there no answer from Scottish Mil. One or two other things in the pipeline too!

In the meantime, perhaps supporters could, again, write to their MP to advise them that James Arbuthnot MP has now taken over as Chair of the Campaign Group. Perhaps they could write to Mr Arbuthnot to pledge their support.

I can assure you all, that with the ninth anniversary of the accident just a few weeks away, I am not in any hurry to go away. The only thing left for the MoD to do is the honourable thing - complete vindication for both Jon and Rick.

May I thank you for kick starting the thread again. Something I should have done ages ago!

Regards, as always
Brian