Golly gee! Cmon guys....do you think this war is any different than the rest in history. The staff pukes will be in the hotels and eating off white linen table clothes ,using siverware and getting gongs for it! But the good news is that in the future...when they begin to tell their war stories and hardship tales you get the satisfaction of reminding them of the truth.

You are participating in a war...not a game of jacks...quit your whining and get on with the job. When you get so exhausted that you are dangerous....go to bed! You will...wherever you are when the old bod runs out of gas.

If commercial helicopter pilots can fly a hundred hours per month under current airlaws then the combat crews can do at least the same. The reason you joined is to serve your country and protect our freedoms...if it is a bit uncomfy then do your best to improve your existence as best you can. I did two combat tours in Vietnam so I know what it is to be exhausted, dirty, and pissed off at the system.

My personal best in Vietnam was 18+55 in one day....146 hours in one month...1100 hours in one year....no air con, no hot water, one hot meal per day , a single one week R&R during the year. We started in tents and built our own hooches from stolen materials. I understand your position but that is what combat is all about....people are depending on you....let them down and they do the dying....you aren't supposed to be comfy....just airborne doing your job as best you can. There's no hotels for the grunts and SOG's....plus they live in a really bad neighborhood!

Hang in there...it won't last forever.


;)

If we're all supposed to be working for the same aim, then why is it that the civvy grd crew from 32(TR)Sqn manage to get hotac down town.?

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Fixedwingfaggott ]

That's an easy one, a civvy can turn round and say NO, we can't.

Tonkenna, Several have gone in. IFS say it is a problem between the crews and Gp. Nothing to do with them. Whle the as****le lickers continue to tell president Bliar that all is well, there are far too many promotions at stake for any of the "middle rankers" yo give a s*it about Flight Safety.

G-33,

Agree with what you say, me old, but what really grips my $h!t is state of the USAF tentage accommodation that has been set up in a very short timescale. The guys are lucky to have six to a tent, not thirty-one, and have proper aircon, AND laundry facilities!!
I have NO bones about the life style out there, but a big problem with the fact that it would cost a minimal amount to rectify a pretty dire situation.
If we put up our refugees that arrive by the lorry-load into the UK in that kind of situation, the EU Court of Human Rights would eat us for breakfast. :p

Maybe what is needed is for one fatigued crew (with a captain that has a spine) to turn round one day and say that he, and his crew, have not had adequate sleep and are not fit to fly. You never know, someone may take notice (yeah right :eek: ).

Mad Mark!

It's often said that when the Spams deploy the coke machines arrive first. But it would pay dividends for our top brass to take a look at the differences in the quality of life they enjoy. For a relatively small investment the standard of living, morale and, therefore, effectiveness of your forces could be significantly improved.

(Edited for bod spooling)

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]

I know this is an aircrew forum and I know I'm not aircrew. But can I just say its not just aircrew who are at the end of their tether.

Whipping Boy,
Welcome and I agree with you
I do not sit easily in my seat knowing that those who service my aircraft, and in whom I put my lifes's trust, are far more tired than I.

Still if it all goes wrong they can always blame crew error can't they. Oh no of course not,not any more...

" A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men..
But a disgruntled employee can do far more damage than 1000 pressed men"
:mad:

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]

Farfrompuken hits the nail on the head! The British have an ingrained trait that begs the statement....."Anyone can be miserable!" I have seen the "muddle through", "oh...this isn't so bad!", "lick upper stiff...I mean stiff upper lip" thing since becoming associated with them. They, as a race of people, find it absolutely impossible to reach for a better standard of living. I have been in bush camps in Iran during the winter without the first parafin heater...no hot water for bathes...lived in staff houses that Ethiopian refugees would have been uncomfortable in....eaten food that would bore a Tibetan goat herder...but as long as they can get snotty assed drunk at night then things are good enough. In Somalia, even when given air conditioners and American rations, did not hook up the aircons and had the unmitigated gall to complain about the quality of the blackberry cobbler! They stood there with sweat running down their noses....swatting at flies...and said..."oh...this isn't so bad!"

A suggestion to you where the US Air Force have the space age tents....enviromental laws forbid the return of that kind of material to the United States....work a deal with the Air Force guys....it will be easier for them to donate them to you than decontaminate and cleanse the equipment prior to shipping it back to the US. That is how we got the swimming pool and huge aircon for the beer tent in Somalia. Be innovative and aggressive about bettering your living conditions....it can be done.

As if the tent city wasn't bad enough - I hear there's no Living Overseas Allowance being paid due to the extensive 'welfare package'! This consists of a TV, some blueys and a 20 minute phone call home per week. Talk about insult to injury. Don't worry though; if its against the rules, some shiney arse at HQ will rewrite them. Merry Christmas!

If the situation is such that there is no local accomodation then a decent temporary set up is justified but surely the local hotels are not going to be booked up by any but BBC reporters and other hangers on. This situation is now arising sufficiently often to justify a permanent team who go out and haggle with the hotel managers for very special rates which undoubtably would be available.
Perhaps the problem is that aircrew have left, or have been forced to leave, bean counting and administration to other branches and there is no greater praise than to an administrator than he who can say "Look how much I have saved ".
The argument that you should put up with it because I had to in ******* is as much sense as washing your smalls in the river with a stone rather than using a washing machine, the world has moved on from the Crimea.

Did you meet Florence Nightingale back in the Crimean War, Art Field?

All this doesn't do much for the RAF's spurious arguements that they'd be better suited to operate Apache than the AAC.

You can't live in hotels at the sharp end gentlemen.

X-Quork - indeed there is a need for field living up at the front line for assualt helicopter operations, especially as that front line will be an ever changing and fluid demarcation. Expeditionary forward LUPs like Cobra in the Gulf being a prime example.

But that's very different from what is akin to pitching tents next to Heathrow's runways because the bean counters are too mean to pay for the Post House. There's no intrinsic need (unlike the expeditionary assault helicopter example) for such conditions in rear areas; people are being shafted purely due to budgetary meanness and for no critical military reason.

AT Ops
If a crew know that they are going to be offered this unacceptable accomodation, as verified on numerous occasions, then surely it is up to the AT Sqn to go into bat? I understand that it is an Op, but if acceptable accom is available nearby, especially as the return leg is planned for 14 hrs......
You don't live in tents in Op Palliser!

IFS
It is not good enougth for you to slope their shoulders. What the heck do you think your job is? You have sufficient anecdotal evidence to go into bat. Perhaps we need some stronger 'leaders' at IFS. It's the same as saying that the AvMed guys are powerless to affect transop times (red- eyes etc)when there is no justifiable reason available. Why bother with the FS courses if you don't practice what you preach?

Tolerate this and your children will be next.

Guys,
I'm there - it's not that bad. The real issue here is how much better it could be with so little effort. Once again this appears to be a case of the the Her Majesty's Gimps willingness to Over-commit and then follow up by Under-spending. The Spams -for all their kit - can't wait to get to our bar (The Camel's Hump) every night because that's where the morale is.
Our biggest enemy is ourselves. As already said, we will always want to get the job done, whatever the circumstances, but you can only stretch a string so far.......

Here endeth my BS Spiel,

Uncle G

Best i go and hand wash my flying kit then (which is u/s as they couldn't afford to send out any Squippers :D _

Talking of sleeping, has any ever even tried to sleep on board any of her Majesty's prison ships? and as for being at the end of my tether I don't even have a tether. Spotty yoof in stores kept it, saying someone else might need it.

Yeah I slept on HM Prison Wear once.

Prime Minister Brown has pledged £100 million to cover the cost of waging war against the Rag-Eds. Just think how many 5 Star hotels the imprest could buy with that.

If there is a legimate reason for being uncomfortable then fine and dandy - get on with it. Wouldn't still be here if I thought like a 'civvy'.
It's only when we have to put up with ****e accom because the powers that be know that we will, so any extra cash can be spent of providing 'Blunties' a 24 hr 'R&R' minibus to run them around Muscat.