I'll walk down to your office tomorrow klubman. :ok:

A few conditions though.. make the training base somewhere nice (that excludes Scotland and The Far East of England).. Errr Doncaster International? And no Aircrew Knives allowed!

goneeast
 

Sounds like deal, mate!

I have been informed that there is no shortage of us....................

.....withering on the vine....

So all that money (rate ones) and time that they/I spent getting the AEPT together in one piece has now been wasted as its now spread around places......
They will never learn the lesson will they. Glad that someone had the foresight to keep at least most of the stuff on a disc......Maybe they could find an Argosy to play with and really step back in time (dump seal spill 19500 485 or some thing like that).
Best of luck to those out there trying to pick up the pieces of the shambles that could be comimg your way. At least there are very few flying jobs outside that will entice anyone away and in this current economic climate there will not be that many other jobs for people to go too so the problem will still manage to stay hidden. Until there are better jobs available outside then watch the early leavers go.

you heard it here first...
 

Don't worry, there will be 2 Sqns of Air Engs becoming available from a secret Lincs airbase after PR09 is announced.

Hey ADIRU (?)...I'd like to correct your initial statement that goes "..the C130J and C17 that do not need an Air Eng (read Flight Engineer).." to something along the lines of "the C130J and C17 that do need a Flight Engineer, but are not configured for one.."

Also...Let me tell all that will listen that it takes substantially more than "a couple of weeks" (as in the case someone said to Xtrain a GE), or anything short of 5 or 6 months to Xtrain a qualified-on-type pilot to be anything resembling a competent Flight Engineer.

In the RAAF, they have an FE course for qualified GEs to the middle seat in their P3Cs that takes 6 months, and that is an extremely intensive course, with a pass rate of around 80%.
They turn out a real quality product that can hold their own anywhere in the world.
It's not good enough to be just able to 'flick a few switches', he/she must have a really sound understanding of how the airplane works, and how to get the best out of it, when it matters.

All this talk is seriously undermining the job of the professional Flight Engineer!

FD

"Evening all ,

Please excuse me for my ignorance, How come there is no longer a Air Engineer role on the RAF careers website?"

Simple. They are being replaced by FADEC, and and a cross bleed valve. BBrrwwwahahahahaha:}

FD,

I have seen some rather silly things posted on here but......

"to something along the lines of "the C130J and C17 that do need a Flight Engineer, but are not configured for one.."

Obviously both LM and Boeing got this one totally wrong so go on, give us the benefit of your vast wealth of of C17 and J model Op's and tell us exactly what said AE is actually going to do on either aircraft....................you couldn't write some of this sh1te :rolleyes:

Flight Detent, I'm just a humble fast jet spanner-monkey so please excuse my ignorance but....

"Also...Let me tell all that will listen that it takes substantially more than "a couple of weeks" (as in the case someone said to Xtrain a GE)...to be anything resembling a competent Flight Engineer."

In the case of a ground engineer, why's that then?

"In the RAAF, they have an FE course for qualified GEs to the middle seat in their P3Cs that takes 6 months..."

Why does it take half a year? I read this as being in addition to the type-specific aircraft maintenance engineering training he/she has already had - six months seems an awfully long time.

"...It's not good enough to be just able to 'flick a few switches', he/she must have a really sound understanding of how the airplane works, and how to get the best out of it, when it matters.

All this talk is seriously undermining the job of the professional Flight Engineer!"

No, I would not suggest that it undermines anybody's professionalism. However, are you suggesting that a ground engineer who spends, I am led to believe, at least six months learning how the aeroplane works, plus God knows how many years prior to this gaining general aircraft maintenance experience on quite possibly a range of types might not be up to the task of doing it in the air, or perhaps does not "have a really sound understanding of how the airplane works"?

I, too, really am intrigued to know what is is that an air engineer does that a suitably qualified ground engineer cannot do.

TrickyTree
 

TrickyTree, it's relatively simple.

In addition to all you've mentioned the FE needs Airmanship.

OK?

Ah! Of course! Airmanship :p

Which of course your average GE has none of......................:rolleyes:

Indeed. So my question(s) still stand.

And the RAF Air Eng Training course was almost 18 months from start to fully turned out able, to do it on their own type of dude!! But that's all history now.
:ok:

But do what on their own.................................:confused:

Tricky Tree

The Ge’s job and that of the Air Engineer require a different mindset.
It is one thing diagnosing and rectifying faults on the pan with the steps in. It is quite another handling emergencies, or appreciating the repercussions of perhaps several unconnected faults, when at 35000ft three hours flying time from the nearest suitable airport.

It would take longer than a couple of weeks as the conversion to type alone would be in the region of 20 sim’s plus flying training. Add on all the essential extras such as met, navigation CRM and other aviation related subjects and it’s easy to see where a figure of six months come from.

I have worked with many GE’s who I thought would have made excellent Air Eng’s although I myself would make a lousy GE. (could never sleep on an aircraft) It would be possible to train suitable GE’s, we used to get a lot of our air eng’s from the ground trades anyway, but it would not be a quick crossover.

Remember. Being an Air engineer is like driving a Wells Fargo Stagecoach. You spend most of your working day sat behind two horses ar@e! :;)

Ok, let's all admit that most aircrew jobs aren't that difficult (please note the 'most'). And what were half our NCA before they went aircrew? (Pre WSop, of course). Yep, serving personnel. And what makes good aircrew? Personally, I'd suggest a basic level of aptitude, with a bucket load of experience thrown in on top. Of course we can train just about anybody to fill a FE position, same as we can take most recruits and turn them into NCA. There is a different perception/perspective towards aircrew systems operation and techie operation, but that's surely due to the background of their training and work experience, and it's hardly insurmountable. And is it even a major problem on the larger ME aircraft, where there is less flexibility in operation and systems management (drills are FRC driven, and you can't go around pulling CBs as they impact on multiple systems - remember the airbus with a broken back on its ground runs?). With reference to the old airline manning, with a new pilot operating the 2nd officers position, that worked fine, and I bet they never tried to engender a FE's perspective. So can we train techs to fill FE positions in the future? Of course we blooming well can. Will they be as good as an experienced FE. Nope. Will they be as good as a newly qual'd FE? Probably not far off. Will they gain airmanship? Course they will, just like all new aircrew do.

Mind you, one thought. Has anybody even wondered if the techs will want to fill in for a few years?

The Flight Engineer not only requires an understanding of aircraft systems but requires an understanding of met, performance, navigation and a myriad of other subjects which, when added together can be classed as airmanship. He has to be able to OPERATE the aircraft, learning a set of SOP's, as well as being able to carry out a variety of drills of varying importance when things go wrong. To make sure he can carry out these drills he has to be able to carry out multiple emergency drills in a serious of ever more demanding sims. It is this that takes time. He also has to keep an eye on ever younger and more enthusiastic pilots, which are let's face it the only thing on the aircraft likely to kill you. I have both fixed aircraft and flown aircraft and the differences are in outlook on what is and isn't acceptable would surprise you. Not one of us believe that we are better than GE's and not one of us believe that some GE's couldn't do the Flight Eng job but I can guarantee that not all GE's could and that those that could would require the full 6 months, if not longer.

Isaneng,

Absolutely spot on :ok:......... unlike a few of your rather precious brethren. Outstanding analogy throttle pusher, another CRM classic :rolleyes: