finally we will be able to put the eagle v tomcat argument to bed ( jeez, thats flippant):E

Yep, far too many passages in the Qu'ran talk about the end of the world. Pick your quote!

Richard Dawkins. What a literary god....

Hang on.... :O

You can disect this argument to no end. The point is that Israel is biblically and morally correct to take any action it needs to avoid another holocaust; one which many nations decided to turn their backs on 60-70 years ago. Sadly, the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 came with a price tag of 6 million lives; any more will be unacceptable.

Beatriz

I plagerise

"Clausewitz especially examines the teleology of war: whether war is a means to an end outside itself or whether it can be an end in itself. He concludes that the latter cannot be so, and that war is "politics by different means"; i.e. that war must not exist only for its own sake. It must serve some purpose for the state."

Perhaps for 'politics', read 'religion'.

I know that this is too deep.

Whatever, it frightens me.

Regards

Don't disagree, taxydual, but I think Clausewitz would have written something very different if he had been confronted with an enemy that actually wants to kill itself in pursuit of its end. I recall a whole section on "moral quantities".

Crikey, it's Saturday night and I'm quoting Clausewitz. I need a drink (and a life!)

coin:But do you ask the same question of Iran?

You know, the one actually threatening to eradicate another nation and seemingly going hammer and tongs to develop the means to do so?

Why is Israel, the US, and the West in the wrong only?

For the record, I hope this doesn't turn out badly. However, I would not blame Israel one bit for either acting preemptively or, if waiting and attacked with a larger than normal 'bang,' for responding with like.

I also see this thread headed to Jet Blast.

Biblically meaning that Israel has full rights to exist to protect the Jewish nation and, both politically and biblically, to exist in the land of Israel.

Quote "Biblically meaning that Israel has full rights to exist to protect the Jewish nation and, both politically and biblically, to exist in the land of Israel.

And here we have the problem..............in a nice honey colour for you.....:(

You are just as bad as each other. :(:(

There is no hope.

I wish our FJ were camoflaged like the IDF F-16s & -15s! Heck, even the UH-60s are desert Camoflaged.



Does this count as Mil talk?:E:E

900nm
 

Most interesting point is that if this exercise over Greece was something other than a big, long-range exercise, and was in fact some form of mission rehearsal, it is telling that all and sundry are talking about "900nm".

Whatever is 900nm from any Israeli AB (Tel Aviv to Bushehr has a great cricle of 974nm according to http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=o...avy&MAP-STYLE=)
the fact is that this requires overflghts of Jordan, Saudi, Iraq and possibly Kuwait.

Now how sensible would it be for any of these countries to allow this, or to look weak by being unable to stop it? None, I would suggest - esp. if it's the Israelis attacking a fellow Islamic (albeit not Arab), state.

Don't think that this is something that is going to happen anytime soon, and certainly no earlier than the Wednesday of the first full week in November (ie, the day after the US Presidential election).

And of course the fact that minus a Security Council Resolution or a imminent threat that fits the Caroline formula (necessity of self-defense, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means and no moment for deliberation) - and no, we're not there yet - such an attack would be illegal aggression against Iran, should remain at the front of our minds.

S41

What about the ceasefire during the 6 Day War? Israel took the Golon Heights, which the hold to this day. They were taken AFTER the cease-fire which was called for by the UNSC.

I've just finished reading "Six Days" by Jeremy Bowen (ISBN-0-7434-49690-X). Very good book.

... the fact is that this requires overflghts of Jordan, Saudi, Iraq and possibly Kuwait. ...

So it can't happen without say-so from US leadership. Can the latter-day Israelites get permission from Washington? That's the question.

Perhaps, Israel buying the F-35B would give them an opportunity to operate with the USN?


Say, off ships in the Gulf?


Realistically, could anyone see an order for Storm Shadow/SCALP if it was integrated on F-35?

Perhaps, Israel buying the F-35B would give them an opportunity to operate with the USN?


Say, off ships in the Gulf?

Say, how about a US Navy ship named USS Liberty?

The question is: HOW can you possibly believe this?

That ANY nation, Israel or not, needs the U.S.' permission to do something in it's own best interests?

Damn, I knew we were powerful, but not that powerful!






(Sarcasm to 'on.')

I do not understand why they used a training field over central Greece where a great part of flying is over water and not let's say towards Turkey where more overland flying is involved?

And I need your opinion what would happen if Iran launches a similar drill towards let's say Pakistan as a response to the Israel's exercise?

Rwy in Sight

Modern Elmo - I didn't say attack knowing its your 'allies'.

In Six Days (the book I referenced above), one of the ideas put forward is that the Americans heard something the Israelis didn't want them too, so they dispatched the ship.

Yep - it is self-righteous, deluded argument like that from modern Israelis that is problem in the middle-east. The Bible gives Israel no grounds whatsoever to steal other people's land. And how does Israel's self-proclaimed morality sit with its own possession of nuclear arms?

Given Israel's history of pre-emptive attacks on neighbours I would say Iran is right to be concerned about having a deterrent against Israel's nuclear capability. There is no way that Iran could launch an nuclear attack on Israel without being immediately wiped out by US retaliation. However, the US would not wipe out Israel if Israel were to launch a nuclear strike on Iran - ergo Iran is perfectly entitled to make their own deterrent - if that indeed is what they are doing. And there is no definite proof that they are doing that - just a lot of propaganda from Israel....

Or, North to Turkey and hang a right.