They're PPs not PPKs, whatever the Bond wannabes say... As OC Arm at Honington I wa asked by a Major going to the sand whether he could have a PP rather than a Browning; my armourer chief and I advised him to stick to the Browning, as you'd do more damage with it when you swing it at the enemy's head...

Surrender
 

The PP's round (the same as the PPK's) transmits more energy into the target at typical pistol engagement ranges (F*cking close) and is potentially more lethal, albeit it carries fewer of them.

The Glock is not impressive and has not been approved for military use by the Ordnance Board.

The whole debate is over which pistol is best for aircrew is largely pointless; you're only given one in order that you have something to hand over as a tangible sign of surrender.

Ahhh...the Browning 9 milly. The only weapon that I could achieve marksman status with on range days.

Although the point about it being the PP has been made, the story behind its introduction is possibly, typical of procurement.

The RAF only got them when a member of the DPG had a stoppage with one during an attempt to kidnap Princess Anne in London, back in the 70s. They decided to get rid of them, and only realised afterwards that they had made a blunder with servicing (I think). A small pin should protrude at the rear of the slide above the hammer indicating a cocking action, but it was reported that this occasionaly broke, causing possible feeding problems. I think I'm right in saying that the officer's PP wasn't modified.

Not a massively effective wpn across the baord, but for close and immediate protection, more than adequate. The half cock style capability especially, and light action, being ideal if you've been injured in the descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_P...Kidnap_attempt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4139187.stm

http://www.ianball.me.uk/

That last link is.... interesting.:uhoh:

I used to receive mail from someone in Rampton (long story). The writing started off ok, it was neat, calm and horizontal. As the letter wore on though, it would start going all over the place. The pencil would be dug deeper and deeper into the paper and before your eyes, through the medium of the writing, you could visualise the guy losing the plot.. as he put his thoughts onto paper.

Scary. And sad.

That last link made for a cracking late afternoon read! Having perused all the now very obvious facts of the case, I can safely say -

http://tippinthescales.files.wordpre.../fruitcake.jpg

in a caring sort of way, obviously...

Al R - are you sure it wasn't from someone at Brampton?

The writing style you describe sounds familiar.....

I rather thought it looked like one of my F6000 written responses.

"Such mental pain over such a long period of time has resulted in the complete destruction of my personality. This means that, when I sue the authorites, I will get record damages - at least £2million."

Does the Walther have a slide? IIRC you just had to squeeze the trigger.

Personnally I prefered the Sterling - now with 30 rounds and full automatic you could scare a few crows.

Biggest draw back of the 9mm weapons was the Indian bullets. Somene must have made a fortune short charging the cartridges. Sometimes they didn't leave the barrel even.

It has a slide and a double action trigger.

Explaining to people the importance of keeping ammunition dry used to be a bugbear, Indian or otherwise.

Still. In the grand scheme of things..

Al R - are you sure it wasn't from someone at Brampton?

The writing style you describe sounds familiar.....


F*ck off Beags, I've long retired!

(We didn't all live in the Brampton Old Peoples' Home - Some of us were in the now demolished Salvation Army Hostel -when we weren't detached)

Advice given for when meeting the "Viet Mick " of old.

"Chuck your 9mm well to the left , and whilst they're scratching about there -

smartly exit stage right."

Mike,

Ref Lyneham FS.

I know who you're talking about. He became a Bootie Reservist, last seen at the Albert Hall a few years ago. Career finished under a cloud if its who I think it is. Smallish, lithe, black hair, 'tache?

Smallish, lithe, black hair, 'tache

Well, I must say that narrows it down a bit.:8

Initials CC? Into his martial arts..?

The rest fits. He was a JNCO on my basics course at Catterick. He wasn't much fun there I can tell you. :hmm:

Browning jam
 

Recollect this happening once or twice.

Used to consider position if Basil and chums found wandering by bad infantry.
Couple of 9mm pistols vs grenades, AK47s etc., esp if one had recently slotted one of their mates or civilians :uhoh:

Edited to say the video is probably of a misfire rather than a jam :O

Count yourself lucky you weren't this guy.

Yee ha, ride 'em cowboy.

Al R
 

which Basics were you on? CC was an instructor on mine too (BG5A/82)

Aah, Jim Beaton, my late Father knew him quite well from their days together in uniform on the beat, before Jim ended up in RP, and later on when my Father ended up in RP as well.

I do remember my Dad's conversations afterwards about "unreliable autos" and after the Princess Anne incident RP quickly changed to revolvers. This is the first technical explanation I've heard though, and your explanation seems to fit in with the reality, and a typical knee jerk reactions by the brass. I do have vague recollections of my Dad saying some of the RP officers were in favour of the PP's being replaced by Colt Commander's as they were compact enough, and they wanted the one shot stopping of the .45 as well as the proven reliabilty, and some didn't like the stronger 1st pull needed with the double action PP.
I suspect that idea got chucked out on cost and politics grounds.....

I am surprised the Met had enough PP's for RAF use (unless the RAF ordered more later?) as I would have thought only the relatively few Royalty and Ministerial CP officers had PP's at the time...maybe Special Branch as well...?

The DPG being uniformed still had issue revolvers at the time IIRC.

rockape2k7,

The one after you, no sprog bashing please. The one too, which used to have to carry railway sleepers everywhere :{. Didn't most of you go to 51/58?

Nice to see you. Lots of aircrew, but despite that, a sensible debate isn't unknown here.

GeeRam,

Sorry about this abbreviated reply, but the 'server busy' crisis wiped out my long and boring answer.

Needless to say, thanks for your polite correction about the differences between Diplomatic and Royal protection duties, and yes. That last point did make me wonder too.

rockape 2k7,

As a PS,

My favourite speech impediment story about CC (behind his back of course) is about a navex briefing he gave us one night in BCTS. We were of course, always shagged weren't we, and wanting to nod off.

Anyway, he goes around the class confirming the basics of the exercise.

"Ok, which direction is South... SMITH!!"

And Jim duly points it out.

"Good. North..? JONES!!!"

"That way Corporal".

"Right. Good. Rhich direction then is.. Rest? BLOGGS!!" (I'll spare him)

Bloggs comes to with a sudden start.

"Sorry Corporal?"

"You rill be you ranker. Rhere's the rest?"

"The rest of the course Corporal? On the 4 tonners I think"

I'd never seen someone lifted up and thrown down a spiral staircase with such consumate ease before then.

Al R - Good tale - all I remember is him calling everyone a 'cwow' and taking us up Sutton Bank for a 'fun run' one saturday afternoon :uhoh:

You are right about postings alot of 5A went to 51 and 58, but a batch (me included) went to QCS. A surprising number of the guys on that course are still around - mostly FSs now. :D

Mike,

Puhhlease. No one likes a smart arse.:=

rockape2k7,

Sutton Bank. That takes me back. I remember being confused on an FT navex one night ('89), when I realised that Land of Nod Wood had become Land of Nod stumps without anyone telling me or updating the map. Good lesson that one.

I was the last on that intake to get out, shame really. After 20+ years I was just starting to get the hang of things. And lasted the longest too I think. One went AWOL from Cyprus and was discharged after being caught by the police escaping from the MGR at Uxbridge in those powder blue denims. He took over the family business but is now a train driver making 36k for sitting on his arse. He ran someone over (a jumper) which is sad.

Another is now one of only a handful of people who train police RTA investigators to train others. I saw him on a police camera action type thing dragging a truck driver from his cab and tackling a hoodie, which was good drills. Another wrote a book (he went AWOL too) about his time in 2REP in Africa and that can be found in Smiths still. One got out to sell photocopiers, and then drove a rig out of Glasgow, one went back to University and the couple of others, who knows?

5A had Flynny and Taff Powell didn't it? What about #### (Mark maybe, I forget) Wilkins?

AIDU,

One of the reasons I didn't post here for a few weeks was because you followed me around the board making sarcastic comments and generally, trolling anything I posted. Now, I'm sure that that admission gives you a nice warm fuzzy glow, but I come here because I like the ambience. The place has a nice feel to it; it could even be a NAAFI.

I accept that all military bars have an irritating little sod in the corner with no mates and all they do is snipe at people who walk past, but give it a rest will you? I may not have been aircrew, I may not have had such an interesting career as you, I might not even get paid as much as you or have as much going for me as you.. but I did do my little bit in my little way. So, do me a favour mate?

Shove off and keep your silly comments for someone else in the real world.

Cheers. :ok:

Al, since I put AIDU on the ignore list life is so much more pleasant ;) Things are so much more chilled, shame its not possible to do the same with important things.

Kitbag, oh it is, it is.

We had a particularly obnoxious staff officer. His emails all had the statutory disclaimer - these are my opinions alone etc. I set up a rule. Everything from him went straight into the Delete tray. :}

If it was important I would get a nice phone call from someone else.

Got back to work on Monday. Not too many emails but the machine speed was pants. If there was an attachment it could take 30-45 min to load. If there was a deadline date on the emails of Monday or earlier I simply deleted unread :}

Kitbag,

:ok:

Cheers, what are the benefits? Does this mean I get to miss his posts?

PS: How :mad: 'king annoying is it getting this?

<<The following errors occurred when this message was submitted:

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PS: How :mad: 'king annoying is it getting this?

<<The following errors occurred when this message was submitted:

1. This forum requires that you wait 120 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds.>>

It's probably only really annoying if you are now a civilian who should have way more better things to do with his life but is still trying in vain trying to out do Beagles daily average PPrune posting record on the Military Aviation Site...........................:rolleyes:

Seldom,

I might have better things to do, true. But than again, I now have a choice what to do.

And just imagine it. If I had joined up 10 or 15 years later, I too could have spent my evenings after the Mess had closed, surfing the internet for a couple of hours with all my cyber friends, and telling other people where they were going wrong.

AlR,

"I might have better things to do, true. But than again, I now have a choice what to do."

And with all the marvelous opportunities the world has to offer once you leave the service, travel, recreation, hobbies, new career to pursue, new horizons etc etc you choose to spend most days posting in here, new average is 3.85..........:(

Said it before but will say it again when I leave in just over 4 years time I am going to be way to busy enjoying my new life to spend every day posting in here.....................and of course there is the added fact that once I have left I wont be "Military Aircrew" any more so wont really fit the "A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here." descriptor :ok:


Timing..............:E

Lucky us. :)

It would be remiss of me not to remind a serving member of the military that much of what the RAF does is now done by civvies? Honestly, its true. Not like in my day of course, but then again, time marches on and things improve. When I joined up lad, admin clerks on units still actually used.. 'cardex' :eek: and didn't have sophisticated computerised systems optmised for administrative efficiency and performance that you seem to benefit from today. But it seems that you can't wait to put it all behind you? Surely it hasn't been that bad? Think of all those years wasted, doing something that you cant wait to forget about . So although I seem to have committed the cardinal sin of having 3.85 posts during billable time, at least I tend not to do it in my own time.

(.. tamps down baccy in pipe and looks down affectionately at the misty eyes youngster) I look back with much happiness on my time nipper, but I don't and won't deny it ever happened. Since leaving, I've travelled the world in a slightly more salubrious manner than I was previously used to, I have taken phone calls from F1 champs (no, I don't work on the BBC switchboard) and the highlight? Going up the Hill at Goodwood. And you know something? When the Reds went over afterwards, I felt 100% proud that I had been just ever so loosely, a part of that. There, said it - 'proud'. Ughh!!

And how's this for a dull story to finish off with, one that you can smugly take the p#ss out of? I attested 25 years ago tomorrow. I took the oath of allegiance next to my oldest friend and together, we travelled to to Swinderby. We were allocated bed spaces next to each other, took our rifle Tests of Elementary Training together, finished the BFT together (he physically pulled me along) and were 3 places apart when we passed out. He failed an inspection, so instead of us all going to see ET in our first weekend leave pass, we stayed to help him prepare his kit for jankers, and stagging on. Childish and freakish to someone like you, maybe. He wanted to be commisioned, but at that point in time his sense of ambition seems to have deserted him. He became an aircraft technician and it was up to me to climb the loftier peaks. Of Catterick. Per ardua.

All the best, and at least we now know we only have 4 years to wait. :oh:

25 years...............get some time in sprog :p.................the saddest thing is that in 4 years when I leave having completed 38.5 years of service you WILL still be posting in here...................:(

Have you never heard of ASMA old boy? :rolleyes:How quickly they forget.....

Cheers Mapes.

I knew there was one more I had to add to the 'ignore' list. :ok:

CC is on his way back..!
 

I have it on good authority that CC may well be on his way back into our ranks. At an Aux Sqn at a secret Oxfordshire base....

I got all excited about this, a thread which is more aroud my knowledge base, and where I can contribute... but it seems to me that the last 2 pages are nothing to do with pistols, but firstly a conversation, followed by two old blokes arguing about... nothing, as far as I can see. (Steady chaps, it's all a joke ;) )



To get back on thread, i've always thought that there are three possible ways downed aircrew can behave if faced with capture - fight it out with your 13 odd rounds, and hope to be treated well at capture (yeah right), fight it out then turn the weapon on yourself (Kipling, anyone?), or just as has been mentioned, hand the weapon over and hope that by acting nice you will avoid being killed to death.

All aircrew i've ever talked to have gone for the final option, meaning what is the point of a combat pistol? Surely, what would be better is to have a survival pistol, a large calibre revolver maybe, used to defend oneself against large predators, or get some food - the basic advantages of a combat pistol, such as larger capacity magazine etc wouldn't be needed in such a situation.

If the aircrew needed a true combat weapon, then a pistol wouldn't cut it anyway, and you'd be better off giving them the Carbine L85A2 a la AAC Apache crewmen, which i've fired and isn't a bad little weapon, if badly balanced.

Hopefully that'll rile enough people up so we can get a decent discussion going again...

Colt AR-7 to snag dinner, large tube of laxative/gyppo guts microbes to get in among the enemy if they let you anywhere near the cookhouse.

Dai, not so much as back on thread but back from the dead.