WSO learn to fly?
 

Hi

Just a quick question, do fast jet (gr4, f3) WSO learn to actually fly the aircraft?
Thanks

Will

Sorry , what does that mean, bit of a newb here!

The WSO learns just as much as the pilot about the aircraft systems, limitations and handling and is required to complete one simulator sortie each year in the front seat (F3) as a reverse crew sortie.

If the WSO really wants to be a pilot (most do not) it is possible to cross over.

Hope that answers your question.

Just out of intrest...why do most WSO not want to be pilots in your opinion? thanks

Some have tried piloting and didn't get through; a few have a problem with that but most move on.

Some of them just don't get that kick from poling that pilots do and are quite content to work in the back seat.

And a few start off as backseaters and make the move into the front. In my experience some of these have made exceedingly competent pilots.

No (RAF) WSO actually gets any programmed flying lessons but I have to say that given a chance to pole from the back (on the rare day a 2-sticker is available) some are surprisingly good!

At the selection phase there's very little to choose between those who go Pilot and those who go WSO. Some who are selected WSO join having applied Pilot and retain a deep seated desire to achieve that goal, others accept that the role they have been selected for is extremely challenging and get on with life. Speaking as a retired Nav, I rarely took the opportunity to pole the jet, it wasn't what I was being paid to be good at so it bored me (although I did once land an f3 from the back seat :E). As has been said there are ocassionally chances to cross over and many of those have done extremely well (the Typhoon force seems to have loads of ex Navs in exec slots). however, it would be a foolish person that accepted a commission as a WSO expecting to get a crossover. Service needs rule, not personal goals.

Thanks
 

Thanks guys that has really helped me.

GW

Personally speaking, I got binned from BFJT at the halfway point, didn't get offered another cockpit and went back to OASC. I got offered WSO, which I gladly took. I was streamed to Fast Jet and am currently having a very rewarding time practicing the art of the navigator. I found that my skills were better suited to the cerebral than the motor skills. If I was offered the chance to re-role back to pilot, I wouldn't take it. I've been a nav longer than I was a pilot and I prefer what I do. Compared to the piloting, I find the Nav'ing much harder, but the satisfaction is far greater and, although my past experience may have helped me, I am now a far better aviator than ever I was. (Although my instructors may question that I have develped at all :})

I can't speak for other WSOs, but I would hope that my positive experience is typical of those who have crossed over. You may be amazed to learn that there is more to flying than being the bus driver! :E

Blunty
(who has probably said enough to be easily recognisable to his peers now...)

Concerning of WSOs in general, in an article in the current issue of 'Air Mail' it was interesting to note that at RAF Waddington, the Station Commander and three of the C.O.s of the four operational squadrons are all WSOs (3 x AEO and 1 x Nav badges). Are the days of the "Two Wing Master Race" coming to an end? ;)

I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that no RAF WSOs get flying instruction. Unless things have changed, RW left-hand-seat WSOs receive some basic handling training and there are about 45 minutes per quarter costed for handling training with a QHI. This often falls by the wayside but there are of course some WSOs who enjoy it and are good at it, and a fair number have crossed over to Pilot with (usually) good results.

Having said that, you can no longer become a RW WSO if you aren't one already so it might not be much help!

Heck no! Perhaps its just that less of them are staying on to 'climb the greasy pole' very far. Pilots have skills that carry over directly into the civvy world, with reasonable pay, if you can be arsed to get the license. Navigating/WSOing doesn't really carry over directly but, of course, plenty of Navs/WSOs (and Pilots, but to a lesser degree?)) do other stuff in civvy street. I think Navs/WSOs are aware that they would have to do something really special to earn that sort of money in civvy street, so they fall over eachother to 'climb the greasy pole' and hence the predominance of them showing up in elevated positions ...... IMHO. ;)

Don't think too much can be read into the number of WSO's in the Surveillance world apart from the fact that the RAF needs somewhere to put it's WSO's given the reduction in 2 seat Sqns for them to command. The civilian career comment has a certain amount of truth (although I had no problems commmanding a pilot level salary outside), but much has to do with the fact that staff officer posts are generally manned by Navs.
Finally, although WSO's do well to Wg Cdr/Gp Capt level, they rapidly hit a glass ceiling and there are very very few 2 star navs (more engineers infact).

Is that really true? - not really thought about it (not being very relevant to myself) are there really more 2-star engs than navs? That said I can think of one (currently serving) 2-star eng whose old man was a 3-star nav!

Stop being a knob.

2* Navigators
 

Air Marshall Stu Peach, DIS and ex OC IX Sqn might have something to say about the lack of 2* Navs. I think that you will find that it will be another few decades until the first starred WSO comes along IMO.:ok:

3P

I was on the staff at Nav school when the 2*'s son was binned; his brother is also now a 1*! Obviously something runs in the family.:E

Interesting comment from danieloakworth about lack of command opportunities for Navs in 2 seat sqns. When the merry go round halts in the GR4 force (i.e. the new commanders take post) there will be 4 navs in command from 6 available at Marham and 3 from 6 at Lossimouth.

Not sure I can agree with Blacksheeps source. Waddo has a nav CO and a nav OC V Sqn and OC 8 is currently a pilot. I believe, but stand to be corrected, OC 23 is currently a nav. Not sure on 51 Sqn. Don't be fooled by those photgraphed wearing the "new" brevet - political correctness (or brown nosing) drives some people to feel the need to give up their old branch brevets for the new bollox badge rather than retain their reserved rights to wear the badge they were awarded (as I believe will be the case when Charles/Wills takes the helm - we won't have to change flying badges to reflect a Kings crown. I stand to be corrected by those who were awarded their wings by George!).

Granted there aren't many multi starred (currently serving) navigators (before samuraimatt reappears with his Bob Monkhouse Guide to Banter) - I can only think of 1 x 3* and 1 x 2* - the Air Force List is now available on line but I can't find the link at the mo.

Was referring to the replacement of F3 with Typhoon. The two Nav CO's at Waddo I know of are both ex-F3 mates. I didn't say there were no Nav 2 stars, I said there are very very few, the fact that we can name them maybe proves the point. Stu Peach is well known as a fast mover, but can't think of many more.

Another young(ish) one star directional consultant.....

http://192.5.30.122/aircadets/images...DTFOREWORD.jpg

..... but I still believe: "No stick - no vote!" ;)

I can see at least two more at 2* in this list and I'm sure there are a slack handful of 1*. No screams of PERSEC please - it's on t'internet for all to see.

You remind me of a conversation at Finningley some 20 years ago between two hair old navs (I was one but not as hairy now) and an equally hairy pilot. He was surprised when we said that we were not really interested in simply flying. He was surprised as any time airborne, even if flying triangles or pounding the circuit was sheer bliss. We OTOH said we much prefered to take-off from A and land at B ideally for a few days R&R!